I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap shackles on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if desired. It will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. So, top cleating or bottom cleating? Henry Monita -- Sent from Gmail Mobile
I prefer the loose end ('tail') to be at the foot of the mast. Lay the 'tail' on the slider hatch so it can be reached for adjustment. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 2:55 PM Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap shackles on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if desired. It will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. So, top cleating or bottom cleating?
Henry Monita -- Sent from Gmail Mobile
Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at the moment...description is: Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to bail on boom. Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. So that's why the block ends up partway between. It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to release if release needed a downward pull. cheers, John On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap shackles on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if desired. It will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. So, top cleating or bottom cleating?
Henry Monita
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) cheers, John On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at the moment...description is:
Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to bail on boom. Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far.
The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. So that's why the block ends up partway between. It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to release if release needed a downward pull.
cheers, John
On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap shackles on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if desired. It will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. So, top cleating or bottom cleating?
Henry Monita
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Dave, Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat at the top. Great picture, John I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang is slack? Henry On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-)
cheers, John
On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at the moment...description is:
Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to bail on boom. Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far.
The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. So that's why the block ends up partway between. It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to release if release needed a downward pull.
cheers, John
On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap shackles on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if desired. It will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. So, top cleating or bottom cleating?
Henry Monita
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Sent from Gmail Mobile
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow.. If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem. It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you... cheers, John On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
Thanks Dave, Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat at the top.
Great picture, John I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang is slack?
Henry
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-)
cheers, John
On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at the moment...description is:
Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to bail on boom. Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far.
The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. So that's why the block ends up partway between. It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to release if release needed a downward pull.
cheers, John
On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap shackles on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if desired. It will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. So, top cleating or bottom cleating?
Henry Monita
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far. Henry Monita On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
Thanks Dave, Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat at the top.
Great picture, John I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang is slack?
Henry
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-)
cheers, John
On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at the moment...description is:
Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to bail on boom. Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far.
The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. So that's why the block ends up partway between. It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to release if release needed a downward pull.
cheers, John
On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap shackles on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if desired. It will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. So, top cleating or bottom cleating?
Henry Monita
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all, Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors "Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
Thanks Dave, Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat at the top.
Great picture, John I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang is slack?
Henry
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-)
cheers, John
On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at the moment...description is:
Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to bail on boom. Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far.
The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. So that's why the block ends up partway between. It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to release if release needed a downward pull.
cheers, John
On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap shackles on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if desired. It will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. So, top cleating or bottom cleating?
Henry Monita
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Peter, A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one. Alex On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
Thanks Dave, Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat at the top.
Great picture, John I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang is slack?
Henry
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-)
cheers, John
On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at the moment...description is:
Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to bail on boom. Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far.
The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. So that's why the block ends up partway between. It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to release if release needed a downward pull.
cheers, John
On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: > I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast > base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of > personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to > cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? > My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin > top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am > thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained > system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap > shackles > on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if > desired. It > will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. > So, top cleating or bottom cleating? > > Henry > Monita >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: Thanks Dave, Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat at the top.
Great picture, John I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang is slack?
Henry
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-)
cheers, John
> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: > Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is > partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly > over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at > the moment...description is: > > Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to > bail on boom. > Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing > sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which > clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail > as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. > > The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. > So that's why the block ends up partway between. > It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting > in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to > release if release needed a downward pull. > > cheers, > John > > > >> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the mast >> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of >> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to >> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin >> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >> shackles >> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >> desired. It >> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >> >> Henry >> Monita >> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi: There doesn’t seem to be a place to attach one to my mast? Do I need to drill a hole and attach a fastener? I think I have a fitting on the boom to attach the other end. Thanks for the explanation. Really appreciate the input. Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors "Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 15, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: Thanks Dave, Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat at the top.
Great picture, John I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang is slack?
Henry
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
> OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this > summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all > details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to > bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 > the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) > > cheers, > John > >> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >> Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is >> partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly >> over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at >> the moment...description is: >> >> Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to >> bail on boom. >> Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing >> sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which >> clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail >> as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. >> >> The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. >> So that's why the block ends up partway between. >> It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting >> in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to >> release if release needed a downward pull. >> >> cheers, >> John >> >> >> >>> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the > mast >>> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of >>> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to >>> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >>> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin >>> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >>> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >>> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >>> shackles >>> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >>> desired. It >>> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >>> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >>> >>> Henry >>> Monita >>> >> > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
There are various ways to attach it at the lower end...to the mast base plate, or to the bottom of the mast, or to something attached to those. My M17 had no vang when I got it. I added a bail on the boom, and a bail attached to my mast base plate. Lower end of the vang clips onto that bail with a snap shackle. I posted a pic just recently, however it's not close-up enough to show that much detail well. One thing to keep in mind is that in an unplanned gybe (or jibe, depending ;-) the shock load on the vang attachment points can be big. So it's best to attach both ends with some method that does not rely on screw threads alone for strength. For example it's easy to screw a strap eye to the underside of the boom (or bottom end of mast) and attach a vang to that. But the screw threads alone then take most of the tension load in a hard gybe - not optimal. They can rip out. So better to have bails that bolt through, or at least screw into the sides, of the spar. That way the shaft of the bolt takes the load rather than the threads. Someone posted a while back about putting a webbing strap around the mast base, with a strap eye on the forward side to keep it from sliding up, that would work also. cheers, John On 10/15/19 9:41 AM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi: There doesn’t seem to be a place to attach one to my mast? Do I need to drill a hole and attach a fastener? I think I have a fitting on the boom to attach the other end. Thanks for the explanation. Really appreciate the input.
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 15, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
> On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: > Thanks Dave, > Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was > just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat > at the top. > > Great picture, John > I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of > line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I > can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit > above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang > is slack? > > Henry > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote: > >> OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this >> summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all >> details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to >> bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 >> the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) >> >> cheers, >> John >> >>> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >>> Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is >>> partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly >>> over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at >>> the moment...description is: >>> >>> Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to >>> bail on boom. >>> Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing >>> sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which >>> clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail >>> as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. >>> >>> The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. >>> So that's why the block ends up partway between. >>> It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting >>> in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to >>> release if release needed a downward pull. >>> >>> cheers, >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>>> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the >> mast >>>> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of >>>> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to >>>> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >>>> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin >>>> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >>>> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >>>> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >>>> shackles >>>> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >>>> desired. It >>>> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >>>> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> Monita >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
An easy method that I use is to slide a short section of hardwood dowel, or better yet, a piece of aluminum rod into the mast slot from the bottom. It stays in place by adding a couple of bolts with washers and lock nuts 3-4 inches apart. Between the bolt I attached a pad eye for the vang. I have 2 of these. The other has a pulley attached to it so that I can lead the jib sheet to the cockpit. I find that I occasionally use a cockpit cleat for the jib, when I am anchoring in tight harbors and strong winds. Makes it very quick to release the jhib, pull the downhaul, and steer at the same time. On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:41 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi: There doesn’t seem to be a place to attach one to my mast? Do I need to drill a hole and attach a fastener? I think I have a fitting on the boom to attach the other end. Thanks for the explanation. Really appreciate the input.
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 15, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
> On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: > Thanks Dave, > Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was > just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat > at the top. > > Great picture, John > I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of > line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I > can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit > above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang > is slack? > > Henry > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net> wrote: > >> OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this >> summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all >> details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to >> bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 >> the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) >> >> cheers, >> John >> >>> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >>> Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is >>> partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly >>> over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at >>> the moment...description is: >>> >>> Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to >>> bail on boom. >>> Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing >>> sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which >>> clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail >>> as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. >>> >>> The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. >>> So that's why the block ends up partway between. >>> It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting >>> in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to >>> release if release needed a downward pull. >>> >>> cheers, >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>>> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the >> mast >>>> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of >>>> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to >>>> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >>>> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin >>>> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >>>> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >>>> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >>>> shackles >>>> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >>>> desired. It >>>> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >>>> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> Monita >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mauri Pro Sailing offers sailboat hardware online at prices usually much better than West Marine, the only walk in store we have here... Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 16, 2019, at 5:31 AM, Michael Murphy <paulaandmike48@gmail.com> wrote:
An easy method that I use is to slide a short section of hardwood dowel, or better yet, a piece of aluminum rod into the mast slot from the bottom. It stays in place by adding a couple of bolts with washers and lock nuts 3-4 inches apart. Between the bolt I attached a pad eye for the vang. I have 2 of these. The other has a pulley attached to it so that I can lead the jib sheet to the cockpit. I find that I occasionally use a cockpit cleat for the jib, when I am anchoring in tight harbors and strong winds. Makes it very quick to release the jhib, pull the downhaul, and steer at the same time.
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:41 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi: There doesn’t seem to be a place to attach one to my mast? Do I need to drill a hole and attach a fastener? I think I have a fitting on the boom to attach the other end. Thanks for the explanation. Really appreciate the input.
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 15, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
> No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, > so far anyhow.. > > If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem. > > It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work > for you... > > cheers, > John > >> On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >> Thanks Dave, >> Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I > was >> just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat >> at the top. >> >> Great picture, John >> I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of >> line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I >> can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit >> above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang >> is slack? >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net> > wrote: >> >>> OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this >>> summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all >>> details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to >>> bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 >>> the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) >>> >>> cheers, >>> John >>> >>>> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >>>> Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is >>>> partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly >>>> over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture > at >>>> the moment...description is: >>>> >>>> Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to >>>> bail on boom. >>>> Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing >>>> sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which >>>> clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail >>>> as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. >>>> >>>> The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. >>>> So that's why the block ends up partway between. >>>> It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting >>>> in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to >>>> release if release needed a downward pull. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>>>> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the >>> mast >>>>> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter > of >>>>> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient > to >>>>> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >>>>> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the > cabin >>>>> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >>>>> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >>>>> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >>>>> shackles >>>>> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >>>>> desired. It >>>>> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >>>>> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> Monita >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> - Eco-Living - >>> Whole Systems Design Services >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >>> http://eco-living.net >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >>> > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > >
Yeah, you’ll have to drill a hole, it won’t hurt it. You use a u shaped bail on both mast and boom, though bolt or pin with clip.Screws and plates will pull out. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 9:12 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: Thanks Dave, Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat at the top.
Great picture, John I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang is slack?
Henry
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
> OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this > summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all > details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to > bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 > the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) > > cheers, > John > >> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >> Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is >> partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly >> over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at >> the moment...description is: >> >> Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to >> bail on boom. >> Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing >> sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which >> clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail >> as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. >> >> The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. >> So that's why the block ends up partway between. >> It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting >> in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to >> release if release needed a downward pull. >> >> cheers, >> John >> >> >> >>> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the > mast >>> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of >>> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to >>> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >>> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin >>> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >>> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >>> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >>> shackles >>> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >>> desired. It >>> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >>> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >>> >>> Henry >>> Monita > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks, will start checking out methods of doing it. Also any brand names on boom vangs for M15? Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors "Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:34 PM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, you’ll have to drill a hole, it won’t hurt it. You use a u shaped bail on both mast and boom, though bolt or pin with clip.Screws and plates will pull out. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 9:12 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, so far anyhow..
If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem.
It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work for you...
cheers, John
> On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: > Thanks Dave, > Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I was > just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat > at the top. > > Great picture, John > I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of > line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I > can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit > above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang > is slack? > > Henry > > > > >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> > wrote: > >> OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this >> summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all >> details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to >> bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 >> the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) >> >> cheers, >> John >> >>> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >>> Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is >>> partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly >>> over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture at >>> the moment...description is: >>> >>> Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to >>> bail on boom. >>> Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing >>> sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which >>> clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail >>> as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. >>> >>> The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. >>> So that's why the block ends up partway between. >>> It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting >>> in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to >>> release if release needed a downward pull. >>> >>> cheers, >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>>> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the >> mast >>>> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter of >>>> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient to >>>> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >>>> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the cabin >>>> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >>>> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >>>> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >>>> shackles >>>> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >>>> desired. It >>>> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >>>> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> Monita >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Peter, I invested in a "Nicropress" tool to eyesplice wire and I have gotten a ton of use out of it. For my vang, I drilled a small hole into the mast track about an inch up from the base. I nicopressed a sleeve onto a piece of flexible (19x19?) wire as a stopper inside, the ran it out through the hole, and spliced thimble and eye about one foot up. To this I attached the standard small boat tackle with "V" jam cleat (Harken?). This puts the tackle above the sliding hatch, but mostly out of the way. Very clean, no bail or screws. Just the wire coming out of the middle of the track near the bottom of mast. Sorry, no pics, boat is in storage. Les On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 2:11 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks, will start checking out methods of doing it. Also any brand names on boom vangs for M15?
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:34 PM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, you’ll have to drill a hole, it won’t hurt it. You use a u shaped bail on both mast and boom, though bolt or pin with clip.Screws and plates will pull out. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 9:12 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. Trying it John's way. Liking it so far.
Henry Monita
> On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net
wrote:
> No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, > so far anyhow.. > > If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem. > > It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work > for you... > > cheers, > John > >> On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >> Thanks Dave, >> Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I > was >> just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat >> at the top. >> >> Great picture, John >> I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of >> line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I >> can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit >> above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang >> is slack? >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net> >> wrote: >> >>> OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this >>> summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all >>> details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to >>> bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 >>> the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) >>> >>> cheers, >>> John >>> >>>> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >>>> Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is >>>> partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly >>>> over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture > at >>>> the moment...description is: >>>> >>>> Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to >>>> bail on boom. >>>> Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing >>>> sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which >>>> clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail >>>> as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. >>>> >>>> The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. >>>> So that's why the block ends up partway between. >>>> It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting >>>> in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to >>>> release if release needed a downward pull. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>>>> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the >>> mast >>>>> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter > of >>>>> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient > to >>>>> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >>>>> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the > cabin >>>>> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >>>>> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >>>>> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >>>>> shackles >>>>> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >>>>> desired. It >>>>> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >>>>> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >>>>> >>>>> Henry >>>>> Monita >>> >>> -- >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> - Eco-Living - >>> Whole Systems Design Services >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >>> http://eco-living.net >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks. This helps a lot! Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 16:07, Les Schuldt <les.schuldt@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter, I invested in a "Nicropress" tool to eyesplice wire and I have gotten a ton of use out of it. For my vang, I drilled a small hole into the mast track about an inch up from the base. I nicopressed a sleeve onto a piece of flexible (19x19?) wire as a stopper inside, the ran it out through the hole, and spliced thimble and eye about one foot up. To this I attached the standard small boat tackle with "V" jam cleat (Harken?).
This puts the tackle above the sliding hatch, but mostly out of the way.
Very clean, no bail or screws. Just the wire coming out of the middle of the track near the bottom of mast. Sorry, no pics, boat is in storage.
Les
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 2:11 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: Thanks, will start checking out methods of doing it. Also any brand names on boom vangs for M15?
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:34 PM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, you’ll have to drill a hole, it won’t hurt it. You use a u shaped bail on both mast and boom, though bolt or pin with clip.Screws and plates will pull out. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 9:12 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but of course a vang attaches to to the mast, not the deck or cabin top. In older rigs with long boomed low aspect rigs and large crews a portable tackle was attached to the deck or rail to the boom. It also acted as a preventer. A 3,000 sq ft schooner main is a frightening thing in an accidental jibe. It’s still a useful thing to have if you haven’t got around to rigging a vang.Even on an itty bitty M15. Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter,
A vang pulls downward on the boom to put tension on the leech (the back edge) of the main. That way the boom doesn’t lift up as you let out the main, loosing some of its power (when the boom lifts, the top of the main may ease out enough to luff even as the bottom is still too tight). Think of the mainsheet as controlling the horizontal position of the boom and the Vang controlling its movement in a vertical plane. Combine a vang and outhaul and downhaul/Cunningham and you can tweak the shape of the airfoil of the sail an almost infinite amount to match it to conditions... also makes jibbing in a breeze more controlled. I’ll be adding one to my new to me m15 someday, but this first season I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well behaved the main is without one.
Alex
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:42 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: Don’t laugh. I’ve only been back into sailing for four years and my M15 didn’t come with a boom vang. I secure the line to my boom to a cleat where the line to the center board drops through the hole. It has worked to secure the line to the boom and I have never thought about it all this time. What is the advantage to a boom vang. I hope this is not too stupid of a question. Thanks all,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Tahlequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
> On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:28 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote: > > Experimenting with the boom vang on one of the last days of the season. > Trying it John's way. Liking it so far. > > Henry > Monita > >> On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 12:20 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> > wrote: > >> No problem with the vang block hitting the hatch. It's never even close, >> so far anyhow.. >> >> If your strap was considerably shorter though, it could be a problem. >> >> It's easy to experiment with strap length so you can see what will work >> for you... >> >> cheers, >> John >> >>> On 10/11/19 9:42 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>> Thanks Dave, >>> Yeah, it makes more sense to me to have the cleat at the bottom end. I >> was >>> just wondering if I was missing something when I see boats with the cleat >>> at the top. >>> >>> Great picture, John >>> I was planning on using a short strop like yours to reduce the amount of >>> line in the tackle. I was thinking of putting the strop at the top but I >>> can see where the cleat will be easier to access if it is a little bit >>> above the deck. Do you find that it bangs on the cabin top when the vang >>> is slack? >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:03 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> OK, I do have a picture, found a shot from Waldo Lake earlier this >>>> summer and cropped to the relevant part. Not super close up to see all >>>> details, but you get the idea, red webbing loop with snap shackle to >>>> bail on mast baseplate partly visible at lower end, and block about 1/3 >>>> the way to boom. Worth 1000+ words hopefully :-) >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> John >>>> >>>>> On 10/9/19 7:53 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >>>>> Mine is "middle-cleated"...that is, the block with v-jam cleat is >>>>> partway between, neither at mast base nor at boom end. It hangs roughly >>>>> over the front-middle of the companionway hatch. Don't have a picture >> at >>>>> the moment...description is: >>>>> >>>>> Single block at boom end attaches to small u-shackle which attaches to >>>>> bail on boom. >>>>> Double block with v-jam cleat has u-shackle which connects to webbing >>>>> sling (loop of webbing) which has a snap shackle at mast end, which >>>>> clips onto a bail on mast baseplate. So it could also clip to toe rail >>>>> as a preventer, if there was enough excess line to reach that far. >>>>> >>>>> The webbing loop is probably about 9" long, give or take a few inches. >>>>> So that's why the block ends up partway between. >>>>> It would seem too crowded to have the block down at mast base, getting >>>>> in way of opening hatch fully, and the line harder to grab easily or to >>>>> release if release needed a downward pull. >>>>> >>>>> cheers, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 10/8/19 2:54 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote: >>>>>> I notice some boats have the block with the cam cleat mounted at the >>>> mast >>>>>> base, others have it attached at the boom end. I know it is a matter >> of >>>>>> personal preference but what is the consensus? Is it more convenient >> to >>>>>> cleat it at the top or at the bottom on a 17? >>>>>> My current cascaded set up has the tail lead to a cam cleat on the >> cabin >>>>>> top, just like the halyards. I imitated the setup from my VN23 but am >>>>>> thinking that is overkill. I want to change back to a self contained >>>>>> system to free up space on the cabin top. The vang will have snap >>>>>> shackles >>>>>> on each end so it can be cleated to the perforated toe rail if >>>>>> desired. It >>>>>> will be 4:1 or 3:1. I don’t see a need to add a doubler. >>>>>> So, top cleating or bottom cleating? >>>>>> >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> Monita >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> - Eco-Living - >>>> Whole Systems Design Services >>>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >>>> http://eco-living.net >>>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (8)
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Alex Conley -
Dave Scobie -
Edward Epifani -
Henry Rodriguez -
John Schinnerer -
Les Schuldt -
Michael Murphy -
Peter Zimowsky