Well, I put Barlow Winchers on yesterday and have come to some preliminary conclusions, although the wind was pretty light with only a few good gusts. They do work fine as cleats when the winch has three turns on it, and you can drop the end into the jam cleat for insurance. They definitely help in winch grinding, taking all the strain on the tail that you usually have to supply with your free hand. It's still a two-handed job, but but all you have to do is pull the tail off as you grind. They do, however, have a drawback that I think will overcome all the advantages, and that's that you can't easily uncleat unless you're near the winch. With cam or jam cleats you can uncleat with a jerk from anywhere in the cockpit, which is nice to be able to do when the wind's blowing. I've never used self-tailers, but it would seem that they would have the same problem. The winchers also work fine when cross-sheeting, which really makes grinding easy since you're doing it on the windward side. Cross-sheeting also makes uncleating easier, but only if you're single-handing. I can't see that cross sheeting would be very convenient when sailing with a crew. Rick M-17 #633 Lynne L ************** Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)