On 18-Mar-14 1:34 PM, Randy Wirth wrote Hi Randy, Your (and my old Mercedes) diesels used entirely different technology than modern diesels use. Ours had mechanically operated injectors that opened when the pressure pump reached a preset pressure. To defeat the technical idiot- politicians in Washington, I bought a VW-TDI diesel in 2011. It is quiet, and you'd never know it was a diesel until you had to refuel and then saw the big yellow signs at the filler neck saying "Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel Only". I get 32 MPG around town and about 42 on longer trips on the highway. It is totally quiet, and the loudest noise you hear while driving, is some tire rumble and a bit of wind noise at 80 MPH It uses a new injection system called a "Common Rail" injector system with very high injection pressures. BOSCH says it can be up to 1,600 Bar (and newer ones are running at 2,000 Bar). Multiply atmospheric pressure of 29.92 inches per square inch of mercury at sea level, by 1,600, and you get 47,872 psi pressure in the rail. Injection is controlled by Piezo electric injectors which totally eliminate the old diesel knock that one heard at low speeds, so a modern Common Rail diesel engine is very quiet, and the whole injection process is computer controlled. The TDI performance is excellent, and I'd never go back to a car that runs on/*politician's whim-fuel*/ again. Yes, I pay more for diesel fuel, but I also get double the miles per gallon that I did with the GTI, and the price difference between regular gas and diesel fuel is only about 12%; I'm ahead of the game. My previous VW was a GTI, and when the 10% ethanol was added, diluting good fuel with low Btu ethanol I got 10% fewer miles per gallon than I did with regular gasoline. "Nuf said. Connie BSME ,
While I do not have a diesel outboard (have an electric), I do have a 2004 Mercedes Sprinter delivery van that I have used to tow my M-17. I purchased it because I thought I could run it on biodiesel. I have run up to B100 made out of french fry oil (made in Reno and Las Vegas) intermittently for many years. The plan was to build my own small 20gal/week plant. However, I was very interested to hear about the bacteria problems plugging injectors. While I have been very lucky, I am not planning on running biodiesel any longer on this vehicle. We had a biodiesel coop in Park City that did a lot of conversions with older diesel engines that had a lot of success stories. I am bummed that I cannot, at present, buy another modern diesel vehicle and make my own. Utah State University is working on the algae biodiesel project and I have been advised against going out ahead of the research.
randy wirth M-17 Bear Lake, Utah ________________________________________ From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 9:33 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 133, Issue 10
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: E15 gasoline (Gail Russell) 2. Re: E15 gasoline (Howard Audsley) 3. Re: E15 gasoline (Howard Audsley) 4. Re: E15 gasoline (Mark Gaffney)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:46:51 -0700 From: Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline Message-ID: <CAKCiK2+rGUqG1xRFJkNWCRmhiamDJkqYNr0KEuy9pwcG46Emxg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I am pretty sure our weedeater was killed by E10. I am in California, and I think we have resisted E15 so far.
Initially, we were told to never allow the E10 to get stale, as it apparently attracts water as it ages, and then causes engines to run hot. Not a real danger to autos, I gather, but small engines (maybe only the two stroke?) For a while, we threw out any gas that was more than a month old. Then we were told to use the Stabil on any gas after a new weedeater overheated on gas taken straight from the pump that day. Since we have started adding Stabil, we have had no small engines overheat.
Correction...it was not Stabil we were told to use. It was an "enzyme treatment" from Starbrite. I just looked up my Amazon acct. https://www.amazon.com/gp/css/order-history/ref=ohs_order_orderid?ie=UTF8&ha...
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:50 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Thx Dave. GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
On Mar 15, 2014, at 1:29 PM, Dave Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Use BOTH seafoam and sta-bil.
:: Dave Scobie
GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Marine Sta-Bil sounds good. How about Sea Foam? GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. On Mar 15, 2014, at 12:03 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for this info, Gail. I use E10 in my car, have for years. Did the weedeaters die from E10 or E15 gas? Most all pump gas nowadays has some ethanol in it. If I have to use Stabil, shucks and I thought I was getting away from all that mixing stuff when I went from a two stroke to a four stroke motor. Sure DO NOT want to cook my brand new Tohatsu 6 though.
On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> wrote:
My small engine guy told me to buy something from Stabil. I think it is Stabil blue. He showed us a whole wall with maybe 20 weedeaters lined up...all dead from ethanol gas. I can look up the exact product if anyone is interested. We took one weedeater in (after our first one died from ethanol gas poisoning) that had overheated. The mechanic smelled the spark plug and said...yup, ethanol. This was when we had used gas straight from the pump (with the idea that the problem really only arises with stale gas). After that, we have used this Stabil product in all of our small engines, every time. It has allowed us to leave the gas in these engines for a period of time.
I would never not use this stuff. Gail
On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:18 PM, George R. Iemmolo < griemmolo2@gmail.com > wrote: > I am fortunate in that I can buy Marine Grade (pink) gas at my lake > > George > Merry Helen II > 96 M15 #602 > > -----Original Message----- > From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Scobie > Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:58 AM > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline > > Where are you seeing E15? Having crisscrossed the country repeatedly over > the last 2 years I've only seen one E15 pump and it was distinctly marked > and separate from all the other standard E10 gas we all use. > > :: Dave Scobie > > stevetrapp <stevetrapp@q.com> wrote: > >> I agree, the E-15 gas I was buying corroded the carburator on my M-15 > kicker motor to the point it would not run, not a good situation on a > tidal > river with the current going out. The repair bill was spendy. Found one > pump in town, at a farm supply store, that sells real regular gas, worth > the > effort to look around and drive over to buy a can of it. >> Steve >> M-15 # 335 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> >> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:51 AM >> Subject: M_Boats: E15 gasoline >> >> >>> Do not use this in your outboard motors, or any motors, engines or > anything >>> else that uses regular gas. Highly corrosive, will void your car's > warranty. > >
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:10:11 -0500 From: Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline Message-ID: <98D401B7-ACCE-497C-93A0-E972B1EB692E@tranquility.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Being from the midwest and on the fringe of the ethanol industry (more of a keen observer than participant), I think I can share some insight.
Ethanol has been blended into fuels for a long time, but on a limited basis. It was the 89 octane choice at the pump. Regular gasoline was the 87 octane stuff. Ethanol use really ramped up in the early years of the "W" Bush administration. Gasoline prices were at historic highs and there was an abundant surplus of corn. So much so they were piling it on the ground and letting it rot. It was about then the push for ethanol really began. The win/win was a market for all the surplus corn and a cheap source of alternative fuels to bring the cost of gasoline down. Anywhere you went in the midwest you could see billboards (yes, we still have billboards) featuring corn farmers proclaiming how much better off we would be keeping our money at home vs. sending it off to the middle east to support those not friendly with us. So public support got behind it and away we went.
Problem being, a 5 Million gallon ethanol plant would cost upwards of $5 million dollars to build. To avert the risk of financing that, lenders and farmers pushed for, and got, a renewable fuel mandate. That meant than 10% of all the gasoline sold in the US would be ethanol. The regular, unleaded 87 octane gas now had to have 10% ethanol in it. Prior to the mandate, a few ethanol plants had been built (wealthy farmers formed coops and built their own). Those paid off in spades, with first year dividends approaching 45%. That meant for every dollar you invested, you got 45 cents back the first year. Almost a full return on investment in 2 years. The two combined triggered a boom in ethanol plant construction and production. Not only corn, but anything that could be fermented to produce ethanol was not being considered. (In my line of work we have a saying and that is "excess profits breeds ruinous competition). I've never seen a better example of this.
The problem being that while in the beginning of this building boom, there was no where near enough ethanol to meet the 10% mark. So they kept on building. Eventually, they got there and kept on building. Now they had more ethanol than they needed.........and they are still looking for ways of making more. The 10% mark became known as the "blend wall". We needed to stop when we hit the 10% mark, but we didn't, so there is a surplus. The same people are now at work trying to increase the 10% to 15% as a means of working off the surplus and keeping the existing plants running. Many have gone under and are now idle. We are awash with ethanol.
As a transportation fuel, ethanol can be made to work. Ford, GM and maybe others do make what they refer to as "flex fuel" vehicles that have been engineered to burn regular gas or ethanol up to 85%. I find it hard to believe, but I'm told the NASCAR engines all run on 100% ethanol.
But when you compare ethanol to regular unleaded gasoline in a normal setting, it sucks. A gallon of regular gasoline has just over 116,000 btu of energy. Ethanol only has around 76,000 btu, or about 2/3's as much. Mileage will be lower, but ethanol is also priced lower, so in theory, it is a wash. Unfortunately it does't work that way. The cost per BTU of the ethanol component in gasoline is significantly higher, creating a pretty good profit margin when priced as cost per BTU. And that is just the fuel cost factor. Worse, in the original configuration, most ethanol plants actually burned more BTU of energy in the form of natural gas to make the stuff than they got in BTU of energy in the form of ethanol. The cruel joke is we would be better off compressing the natural gas and burning that than making ethanol. Modern era plants are much more efficient, but I still think we would be better off burning the natural gas.
Ethanol will blend with gasoline and create a liquid transportable fuel that will get you up and down the road. But it is not stable. Over time, it will separate and alcohol and water do mix better than alcohol and gasoline do. Ethanol will also attract water, so over time, water does accumulate in an ethanol blend. Ethanol is also highly corrosive to many forms of rubber and plastic (the kind used as seals and gaskets in gasoline engines of all types), which is why they can't transport it in pipelines. Most of it is shipped by rail. Virtually every engine I have that was not designed for ethanol use has been affected. In most cases, I have been able to get them fixed, but it has been expensive.
My current small engine repair guy told me that most professional weed whackers (lawn maintenance guys) buy all their fuel from one local station that stil offers 91 octane regular, without ethanol in it. He a little test tube device he found that you can put a few ounces of fuel in, shake it, and it will separate, telling you if it has ethanol in it, or not, and at what percent. He only had one, or I would have bought it.
Our local marina now offers ethanol free fuel at the pump. Not sure where they get it, but they have it. Hopefully, that will become the norm, as in places like Maine, where people live on offshore islands and have to buy there fuel in bulk and transport it in jerry jugs, it is an unmitigated disaster. Not only wrecking engines, but creating safety issues when they are dependent on gasoline engines that won't start or run.
On the other hand, if you are a concerned about the environment, you can take solace in knowing your engines are in part solar powered. At some point, when we do run out of fossil fuels, we will have this technology to fall back on. Or, if all else fails, ethanol plants are really not much more than gigantic moonshine stills. If not for the small amount of gasoline they blend into it at the plant to make it poison, you could drink the stuff. If all else fails, perhaps we can sell it as hooch?
On Mar 17, 2014, at 8:46 PM, Gail Russell wrote:
I am pretty sure our weedeater was killed by E10. I am in California, and I think we have resisted E15 so far.
Initially, we were told to never allow the E10 to get stale, as it apparently attracts water as it ages, and then causes engines to run hot. Not a real danger to autos, I gather, but small engines (maybe only the two stroke?) For a while, we threw out any gas that was more than a month old. Then we were told to use the Stabil on any gas after a new weedeater overheated on gas taken straight from the pump that day. Since we have started adding Stabil, we have had no small engines overheat.
Correction...it was not Stabil we were told to use. It was an "enzyme treatment" from Starbrite. I just looked up my Amazon acct. https://www.amazon.com/gp/css/order-history/ref=ohs_order_orderid?ie=UTF8&ha...
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:50 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Thx Dave. GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
On Mar 15, 2014, at 1:29 PM, Dave Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Use BOTH seafoam and sta-bil.
:: Dave Scobie
GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Marine Sta-Bil sounds good. How about Sea Foam? GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. On Mar 15, 2014, at 12:03 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for this info, Gail. I use E10 in my car, have for years. Did the weedeaters die from E10 or E15 gas? Most all pump gas nowadays has some ethanol in it. If I have to use Stabil, shucks and I thought I was getting away from all that mixing stuff when I went from a two stroke to a four stroke motor. Sure DO NOT want to cook my brand new Tohatsu 6 though.
On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> wrote:
> My small engine guy told me to buy something from Stabil. I think it is > Stabil blue. He showed us a whole wall with maybe 20 weedeaters lined > up...all dead from ethanol gas. I can look up the exact product if anyone > is interested. We took one weedeater in (after our first one died from > ethanol gas poisoning) that had overheated. The mechanic smelled the spark > plug and said...yup, ethanol. This was when we had used gas straight from > the pump (with the idea that the problem really only arises with stale > gas). After that, we have used this Stabil product in all of our small > engines, every time. It has allowed us to leave the gas in these engines > for a period of time. > > I would never not use this stuff. Gail > > > On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:18 PM, George R. Iemmolo < griemmolo2@gmail.com >> wrote: >> I am fortunate in that I can buy Marine Grade (pink) gas at my lake >> >> George >> Merry Helen II >> 96 M15 #602 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com >> [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave >> Scobie >> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:58 AM >> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats >> Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline >> >> Where are you seeing E15? Having crisscrossed the country repeatedly over >> the last 2 years I've only seen one E15 pump and it was distinctly marked >> and separate from all the other standard E10 gas we all use. >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> >> stevetrapp <stevetrapp@q.com> wrote: >> >>> I agree, the E-15 gas I was buying corroded the carburator on my > M-15 >> kicker motor to the point it would not run, not a good situation on a >> tidal >> river with the current going out. The repair bill was spendy. Found one >> pump in town, at a farm supply store, that sells real regular gas, worth >> the >> effort to look around and drive over to buy a can of it. >>> Steve >>> M-15 # 335 >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> >>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" >> <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:51 AM >>> Subject: M_Boats: E15 gasoline >>> >>> >>>> Do not use this in your outboard motors, or any motors, engines or >> anything >>>> else that uses regular gas. Highly corrosive, will void your car's >> warranty. >> >>
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:49:01 -0500 From: Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline Message-ID: <9B06E3F6-E03C-4BDD-93C5-0FBF6F483DAA@tranquility.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
BTW, of the two biofuels, biodiesel is considered the red headed step child nobody wants, but is far and away a better fuel. It has nearly 95% the BTU energy as regular diesel and none of the other issues. Some actually consider it to be better, as it has natural lubrication properties that eliminates the need to add sulfur, which contributes to smog and other problems. It too has solvent properties, but in this case, on the good side. One of the first things people have to do when they start burning biodiesel is to change the fuel filters, as solvents in the biodiesel start cleaning the gunk and other things to squeaky clean status.
Not only that, but it is simple and economic to make. You yourself can make it on your kitchen table. Pour a quart or so of used cooking oil into a 2 liter soda bottle, add some lye (drain cleaner) and methanol (fuel additive HEAT from the auto parts store), shake it up and voila! It will separate into biodiesel and glycerin right in front of your eyes. All that is left to do is to separate it, clean it up and you could pour that into your Mercedes and it would run. People have done that for years.
The problem with biodiesel is there is no economic source of fats and oils to be had. The original concept was to use products like soy oil, but there was no surplus of soybeans as there was of corn. In both cases, the pump price for a gallon of gasoline or diesel sets the upper limit of what can be paid for the feedstock precursers (corn or soybeans) that become these biofuels. McDonalds and Wendy's need cooking oil to stay in business and can always pay one increment more in price to obtain it than a bioD plant can. Those that didn't realize that went broke inside of a few months.
Again, the ultimate source of energy for biofuels is the sun. To date, no plant has been identified that can produce fats or oils on an economic scale to make this feasible. The main hope to date has been algae, some of which can produce large amounts of fats, but getting those separated hasn't been easy. Of the plants that are successful and are still running, most are using used cooking oil as their precurser feedstock. It turns out it works just as well downstream of McDonalds as it does before they use it.
If you are interested in supporting biofuels, get behind biodiesel. Almost any plant or animal fat, from used cooking oil to bacon grease can be made into clean burning and valuable bioD. Small plants do not cost that much and are economical to operate. When your feedstock is a true waste product, it is cheap and that concept does work.
On Mar 18, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Being from the midwest and on the fringe of the ethanol industry (more of a keen observer than participant), I think I can share some insight.
Ethanol has been blended into fuels for a long time, but on a limited basis. It was the 89 octane choice at the pump. Regular gasoline was the 87 octane stuff. Ethanol use really ramped up in the early years of the "W" Bush administration. Gasoline prices were at historic highs and there was an abundant surplus of corn. So much so they were piling it on the ground and letting it rot. It was about then the push for ethanol really began. The win/win was a market for all the surplus corn and a cheap source of alternative fuels to bring the cost of gasoline down. Anywhere you went in the midwest you could see billboards (yes, we still have billboards) featuring corn farmers proclaiming how much better off we would be keeping our money at home vs. sending it off to the middle east to support those not friendly with us. So public support got behind it and away we went.
Problem being, a 5 Million gallon ethanol plant would cost upwards of $5 million dollars to build. To avert the risk of financing that, lenders and farmers pushed for, and got, a renewable fuel mandate. That meant than 10% of all the gasoline sold in the US would be ethanol. The regular, unleaded 87 octane gas now had to have 10% ethanol in it. Prior to the mandate, a few ethanol plants had been built (wealthy farmers formed coops and built their own). Those paid off in spades, with first year dividends approaching 45%. That meant for every dollar you invested, you got 45 cents back the first year. Almost a full return on investment in 2 years. The two combined triggered a boom in ethanol plant construction and production. Not only corn, but anything that could be fermented to produce ethanol was not being considered. (In my line of work we have a saying and that is "excess profits breeds ruinous competition). I've never seen a better example of this.
The problem being that while in the beginning of this building boom, there was no where near enough ethanol to meet the 10% mark. So they kept on building. Eventually, they got there and kept on building. Now they had more ethanol than they needed.........and they are still looking for ways of making more. The 10% mark became known as the "blend wall". We needed to stop when we hit the 10% mark, but we didn't, so there is a surplus. The same people are now at work trying to increase the 10% to 15% as a means of working off the surplus and keeping the existing plants running. Many have gone under and are now idle. We are awash with ethanol.
As a transportation fuel, ethanol can be made to work. Ford, GM and maybe others do make what they refer to as "flex fuel" vehicles that have been engineered to burn regular gas or ethanol up to 85%. I find it hard to believe, but I'm told the NASCAR engines all run on 100% ethanol.
But when you compare ethanol to regular unleaded gasoline in a normal setting, it sucks. A gallon of regular gasoline has just over 116,000 btu of energy. Ethanol only has around 76,000 btu, or about 2/3's as much. Mileage will be lower, but ethanol is also priced lower, so in theory, it is a wash. Unfortunately it does't work that way. The cost per BTU of the ethanol component in gasoline is significantly higher, creating a pretty good profit margin when priced as cost per BTU. And that is just the fuel cost factor. Worse, in the original configuration, most ethanol plants actually burned more BTU of energy in the form of natural gas to make the stuff than they got in BTU of energy in the form of ethanol. The cruel joke is we would be better off compressing the natural gas and burning that than making ethanol. Modern era plants are much more efficient, but I still think we would be better off burning the natural gas.
Ethanol will blend with gasoline and create a liquid transportable fuel that will get you up and down the road. But it is not stable. Over time, it will separate and alcohol and water do mix better than alcohol and gasoline do. Ethanol will also attract water, so over time, water does accumulate in an ethanol blend. Ethanol is also highly corrosive to many forms of rubber and plastic (the kind used as seals and gaskets in gasoline engines of all types), which is why they can't transport it in pipelines. Most of it is shipped by rail. Virtually every engine I have that was not designed for ethanol use has been affected. In most cases, I have been able to get them fixed, but it has been expensive.
My current small engine repair guy told me that most professional weed whackers (lawn maintenance guys) buy all their fuel from one local station that stil offers 91 octane regular, without ethanol in it. He a little test tube device he found that you can put a few ounces of fuel in, shake it, and it will separate, telling you if it has ethanol in it, or not, and at what percent. He only had one, or I would have bought it.
Our local marina now offers ethanol free fuel at the pump. Not sure where they get it, but they have it. Hopefully, that will become the norm, as in places like Maine, where people live on offshore islands and have to buy there fuel in bulk and transport it in jerry jugs, it is an unmitigated disaster. Not only wrecking engines, but creating safety issues when they are dependent on gasoline engines that won't start or run.
On the other hand, if you are a concerned about the environment, you can take solace in knowing your engines are in part solar powered. At some point, when we do run out of fossil fuels, we will have this technology to fall back on. Or, if all else fails, ethanol plants are really not much more than gigantic moonshine stills. If not for the small amount of gasoline they blend into it at the plant to make it poison, you could drink the stuff. If all else fails, perhaps we can sell it as hooch?
On Mar 17, 2014, at 8:46 PM, Gail Russell wrote:
I am pretty sure our weedeater was killed by E10. I am in California, and I think we have resisted E15 so far.
Initially, we were told to never allow the E10 to get stale, as it apparently attracts water as it ages, and then causes engines to run hot. Not a real danger to autos, I gather, but small engines (maybe only the two stroke?) For a while, we threw out any gas that was more than a month old. Then we were told to use the Stabil on any gas after a new weedeater overheated on gas taken straight from the pump that day. Since we have started adding Stabil, we have had no small engines overheat.
Correction...it was not Stabil we were told to use. It was an "enzyme treatment" from Starbrite. I just looked up my Amazon acct. https://www.amazon.com/gp/css/order-history/ref=ohs_order_orderid?ie=UTF8&ha...
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:50 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Thx Dave. GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
On Mar 15, 2014, at 1:29 PM, Dave Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Use BOTH seafoam and sta-bil.
:: Dave Scobie
GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Marine Sta-Bil sounds good. How about Sea Foam? GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. On Mar 15, 2014, at 12:03 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for this info, Gail. I use E10 in my car, have for years. Did the > weedeaters die from E10 or E15 gas? Most all pump gas nowadays has some > ethanol in it. If I have to use Stabil, shucks and I thought I was getting > away from all that mixing stuff when I went from a two stroke to a four > stroke motor. Sure DO NOT want to cook my brand new Tohatsu 6 though. > > > On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> wrote: > >> My small engine guy told me to buy something from Stabil. I think it is >> Stabil blue. He showed us a whole wall with maybe 20 weedeaters lined >> up...all dead from ethanol gas. I can look up the exact product if anyone >> is interested. We took one weedeater in (after our first one died from >> ethanol gas poisoning) that had overheated. The mechanic smelled the spark >> plug and said...yup, ethanol. This was when we had used gas straight from >> the pump (with the idea that the problem really only arises with stale >> gas). After that, we have used this Stabil product in all of our small >> engines, every time. It has allowed us to leave the gas in these engines >> for a period of time. >> >> I would never not use this stuff. Gail >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:18 PM, George R. Iemmolo < griemmolo2@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> I am fortunate in that I can buy Marine Grade (pink) gas at my lake >>> >>> George >>> Merry Helen II >>> 96 M15 #602 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com >>> [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave >>> Scobie >>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:58 AM >>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline >>> >>> Where are you seeing E15? Having crisscrossed the country repeatedly over >>> the last 2 years I've only seen one E15 pump and it was distinctly marked >>> and separate from all the other standard E10 gas we all use. >>> >>> :: Dave Scobie >>> >>> stevetrapp <stevetrapp@q.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree, the E-15 gas I was buying corroded the carburator on my >> M-15 >>> kicker motor to the point it would not run, not a good situation on a >>> tidal >>> river with the current going out. The repair bill was spendy. Found one >>> pump in town, at a farm supply store, that sells real regular gas, worth >>> the >>> effort to look around and drive over to buy a can of it. >>>> Steve >>>> M-15 # 335 >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> >>>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" >>> <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:51 AM >>>> Subject: M_Boats: E15 gasoline >>>> >>>> >>>>> Do not use this in your outboard motors, or any motors, engines or >>> anything >>>>> else that uses regular gas. Highly corrosive, will void your car's >>> warranty. >>> >>>
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:31:50 +0000 From: Mark Gaffney <mgaffney@stacywitbeck.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline Message-ID: <400b2ab955814aeca6d3d649e3259caf@BL2PR04MB098.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
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I have to share some of my negative experience with biodiesel. I am a construction equipment manager for a large national construction company that also works in Oregon. Running biodiesel is seen as being "Green" in Oregon. Biodiesel is fine ONLY on older engines that do not have high pressure injection systems. These systems require very fine filtration of the fuel running through them. The newer engines (tier 3 and newer) that are designed to run only low sulfur diesel can't handle the tendency of biodiesel to gel in colder temperatures. They also can't handle algae that can grow in the fuel tanks when using biodiesel. I have been plagued with damage to two newer $300,000 excavators due to algae contamination in our fuel systems. I have been fighting this damage for over a year. Despite multiple treatments, the switch back to standard diesel, replacement of all fuel lines and the fuel tank all at a huge expense, the system keeps growing algae. The algae plugs the filters and the engine quits running. Biodiesel is fine for older diesel engines, as they are less filtered and can burn any contaminants, but biodiesel should be avoided at all cost on newer tiered engines. The California Air Resource Board (CARB) suggests biodiesel actually increases NOx levels in exhaust which is counter to the green benefits proponents of biodiesel continue to tout.
Mark Gaffney Montgomery 15 SF Bay Area
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+mgaffney=stacywitbeck.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+mgaffney=stacywitbeck.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Howard Audsley Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:49 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline
BTW, of the two biofuels, biodiesel is considered the red headed step child nobody wants, but is far and away a better fuel. It has nearly 95% the BTU energy as regular diesel and none of the other issues. Some actually consider it to be better, as it has natural lubrication properties that eliminates the need to add sulfur, which contributes to smog and other problems. It too has solvent properties, but in this case, on the good side. One of the first things people have to do when they start burning biodiesel is to change the fuel filters, as solvents in the biodiesel start cleaning the gunk and other things to squeaky clean status.
Not only that, but it is simple and economic to make. You yourself can make it on your kitchen table. Pour a quart or so of used cooking oil into a 2 liter soda bottle, add some lye (drain cleaner) and methanol (fuel additive HEAT from the auto parts store), shake it up and voila! It will separate into biodiesel and glycerin right in front of your eyes. All that is left to do is to separate it, clean it up and you could pour that into your Mercedes and it would run. People have done that for years.
The problem with biodiesel is there is no economic source of fats and oils to be had. The original concept was to use products like soy oil, but there was no surplus of soybeans as there was of corn. In both cases, the pump price for a gallon of gasoline or diesel sets the upper limit of what can be paid for the feedstock precursers (corn or soybeans) that become these biofuels. McDonalds and Wendy's need cooking oil to stay in business and can always pay one increment more in price to obtain it than a bioD plant can. Those that didn't realize that went broke inside of a few months.
Again, the ultimate source of energy for biofuels is the sun. To date, no plant has been identified that can produce fats or oils on an economic scale to make this feasible. The main hope to date has been algae, some of which can produce large amounts of fats, but getting those separated hasn't been easy. Of the plants that are successful and are still running, most are using used cooking oil as their precurser feedstock. It turns out it works just as well downstream of McDonalds as it does before they use it.
If you are interested in supporting biofuels, get behind biodiesel. Almost any plant or animal fat, from used cooking oil to bacon grease can be made into clean burning and valuable bioD. Small plants do not cost that much and are economical to operate. When your feedstock is a true waste product, it is cheap and that concept does work.
On Mar 18, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Being from the midwest and on the fringe of the ethanol industry (more of a keen observer than participant), I think I can share some insight.
Ethanol has been blended into fuels for a long time, but on a limited basis. It was the 89 octane choice at the pump. Regular gasoline was the 87 octane stuff. Ethanol use really ramped up in the early years of the "W" Bush administration. Gasoline prices were at historic highs and there was an abundant surplus of corn. So much so they were piling it on the ground and letting it rot. It was about then the push for ethanol really began. The win/win was a market for all the surplus corn and a cheap source of alternative fuels to bring the cost of gasoline down. Anywhere you went in the midwest you could see billboards (yes, we still have billboards) featuring corn farmers proclaiming how much better off we would be keeping our money at home vs. sending it off to the middle east to support those not friendly with us. So public support got behind it and away we went.
Problem being, a 5 Million gallon ethanol plant would cost upwards of $5 million dollars to build. To avert the risk of financing that, lenders and farmers pushed for, and got, a renewable fuel mandate. That meant than 10% of all the gasoline sold in the US would be ethanol. The regular, unleaded 87 octane gas now had to have 10% ethanol in it. Prior to the mandate, a few ethanol plants had been built (wealthy farmers formed coops and built their own). Those paid off in spades, with first year dividends approaching 45%. That meant for every dollar you invested, you got 45 cents back the first year. Almost a full return on investment in 2 years. The two combined triggered a boom in ethanol plant construction and production. Not only corn, but anything that could be fermented to produce ethanol was not being considered. (In my line of work we have a saying and that is "excess profits breeds ruinous competition). I've never seen a better example of this.
The problem being that while in the beginning of this building boom, there was no where near enough ethanol to meet the 10% mark. So they kept on building. Eventually, they got there and kept on building. Now they had more ethanol than they needed.........and they are still looking for ways of making more. The 10% mark became known as the "blend wall". We needed to stop when we hit the 10% mark, but we didn't, so there is a surplus. The same people are now at work trying to increase the 10% to 15% as a means of working off the surplus and keeping the existing plants running. Many have gone under and are now idle. We are awash with ethanol.
As a transportation fuel, ethanol can be made to work. Ford, GM and maybe others do make what they refer to as "flex fuel" vehicles that have been engineered to burn regular gas or ethanol up to 85%. I find it hard to believe, but I'm told the NASCAR engines all run on 100% ethanol.
But when you compare ethanol to regular unleaded gasoline in a normal setting, it sucks. A gallon of regular gasoline has just over 116,000 btu of energy. Ethanol only has around 76,000 btu, or about 2/3's as much. Mileage will be lower, but ethanol is also priced lower, so in theory, it is a wash. Unfortunately it does't work that way. The cost per BTU of the ethanol component in gasoline is significantly higher, creating a pretty good profit margin when priced as cost per BTU. And that is just the fuel cost factor. Worse, in the original configuration, most ethanol plants actually burned more BTU of energy in the form of natural gas to make the stuff than they got in BTU of energy in the form of ethanol. The cruel joke is we would be better off compressing the natural gas and burning that than making ethanol. Modern era plants are much more efficient, but I still think we would be better off burning the natural gas.
Ethanol will blend with gasoline and create a liquid transportable fuel that will get you up and down the road. But it is not stable. Over time, it will separate and alcohol and water do mix better than alcohol and gasoline do. Ethanol will also attract water, so over time, water does accumulate in an ethanol blend. Ethanol is also highly corrosive to many forms of rubber and plastic (the kind used as seals and gaskets in gasoline engines of all types), which is why they can't transport it in pipelines. Most of it is shipped by rail. Virtually every engine I have that was not designed for ethanol use has been affected. In most cases, I have been able to get them fixed, but it has been expensive.
My current small engine repair guy told me that most professional weed whackers (lawn maintenance guys) buy all their fuel from one local station that stil offers 91 octane regular, without ethanol in it. He a little test tube device he found that you can put a few ounces of fuel in, shake it, and it will separate, telling you if it has ethanol in it, or not, and at what percent. He only had one, or I would have bought it.
Our local marina now offers ethanol free fuel at the pump. Not sure where they get it, but they have it. Hopefully, that will become the norm, as in places like Maine, where people live on offshore islands and have to buy there fuel in bulk and transport it in jerry jugs, it is an unmitigated disaster. Not only wrecking engines, but creating safety issues when they are dependent on gasoline engines that won't start or run.
On the other hand, if you are a concerned about the environment, you can take solace in knowing your engines are in part solar powered. At some point, when we do run out of fossil fuels, we will have this technology to fall back on. Or, if all else fails, ethanol plants are really not much more than gigantic moonshine stills. If not for the small amount of gasoline they blend into it at the plant to make it poison, you could drink the stuff. If all else fails, perhaps we can sell it as hooch?
On Mar 17, 2014, at 8:46 PM, Gail Russell wrote:
I am pretty sure our weedeater was killed by E10. I am in California, and I think we have resisted E15 so far.
Initially, we were told to never allow the E10 to get stale, as it apparently attracts water as it ages, and then causes engines to run hot. Not a real danger to autos, I gather, but small engines (maybe only the two stroke?) For a while, we threw out any gas that was more than a month old. Then we were told to use the Stabil on any gas after a new weedeater overheated on gas taken straight from the pump that day. Since we have started adding Stabil, we have had no small engines overheat.
Correction...it was not Stabil we were told to use. It was an "enzyme treatment" from Starbrite. I just looked up my Amazon acct. https://www.amazon.com/gp/css/order-history/ref=ohs_order_orderid?ie= UTF8&hasWorkingJavascript=1&opt=ab&qid=&search=107-1274711-9301017&sr =
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:50 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com<mailto:gmhyde1@mac.com>> wrote:
Thx Dave. GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
On Mar 15, 2014, at 1:29 PM, Dave Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com<mailto:wdscobie@yahoo.com>> wrote:
Use BOTH seafoam and sta-bil.
:: Dave Scobie
GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com<mailto:gmhyde1@mac.com>> wrote:
Marine Sta-Bil sounds good. How about Sea Foam? GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. On Mar 15, 2014, at 12:03 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com<mailto:thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com>> wrote: > Thanks for this info, Gail. I use E10 in my car, have for years. > Did the > weedeaters die from E10 or E15 gas? Most all pump gas nowadays > has some ethanol in it. If I have to use Stabil, shucks and I > thought I was getting > away from all that mixing stuff when I went from a two stroke to > a four stroke motor. Sure DO NOT want to cook my brand new Tohatsu 6 though. > > > On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com<mailto:gail@zeliga.com>> wrote: > >> My small engine guy told me to buy something from Stabil. I >> think it is >> Stabil blue. He showed us a whole wall with maybe 20 weedeaters >> lined up...all dead from ethanol gas. I can look up the exact >> product if anyone >> is interested. We took one weedeater in (after our first one >> died from >> ethanol gas poisoning) that had overheated. The mechanic >> smelled the spark >> plug and said...yup, ethanol. This was when we had used gas >> straight from >> the pump (with the idea that the problem really only arises with >> stale gas). After that, we have used this Stabil product in all >> of our small >> engines, every time. It has allowed us to leave the gas in >> these engines >> for a period of time. >> >> I would never not use this stuff. Gail >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:18 PM, George R. Iemmolo < griemmolo2@gmail.com<mailto:griemmolo2@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> I am fortunate in that I can buy Marine Grade (pink) gas at my >>> lake >>> >>> George >>> Merry Helen II >>> 96 M15 #602 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com<mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> >>> [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On >>> Behalf Of Dave >>> Scobie >>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:58 AM >>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: E15 gasoline >>> >>> Where are you seeing E15? Having crisscrossed the country >>> repeatedly over >>> the last 2 years I've only seen one E15 pump and it was >>> distinctly marked >>> and separate from all the other standard E10 gas we all use. >>> >>> :: Dave Scobie >>> >>> stevetrapp <stevetrapp@q.com<mailto:stevetrapp@q.com>> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree, the E-15 gas I was buying corroded the carburator on >>>> my >> M-15 >>> kicker motor to the point it would not run, not a good >>> situation on a >>> tidal >>> river with the current going out. The repair bill was spendy. Found one >>> pump in town, at a farm supply store, that sells real regular >>> gas, worth >>> the >>> effort to look around and drive over to buy a can of it. >>>> Steve >>>> M-15 # 335 >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com<mailto:thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com>> >>>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" >>> <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com<mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:51 AM >>>> Subject: M_Boats: E15 gasoline >>>> >>>> >>>>> Do not use this in your outboard motors, or any motors, >>>>> engines or >>> anything >>>>> else that uses regular gas. Highly corrosive, will void your >>>>> car's >>> warranty. >>> >>>