June 2015 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Montgomery knock down
by Thomas Buzzi 27 Jun '15

27 Jun '15

Long ago I read about the practicality of leaving at least one hatch board in while sailing and adding them as conditions pipe up. In that same article was also the advice to install some sort of locking feature (barrel bolts) on at least the bottom companionway board. They are not handy to step over or remove to go below but they do provide a few precious minutes to get yourself sorted out after a knockdown. My 17' doesn't have any positive flotation and I have been thinking about adding some as high as I can get it so the boat will tend to float upright when swamped. Any ideas about materials available to do this? Fair winds, Tom B. Mont.17 "AS-IS"

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FW: Turning Turtle
by George Iemmolo 26 Jun '15

26 Jun '15

-----Original Message----- From: George Iemmolo [mailto:griemmolo2@gamil.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 10:53 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Turning Turtle Robert PTL all went well you & the boat survived. You were wearing your life preserver right. Good advise regarding drop boards. I was wondering regarding your reefing sequence. I have always reefed the Main prior to dropping the Jib. Do you have roller reefing & had reduced the jib area that way? George (83 yr) Merry Helen II 96 M15 #602 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Robert Hall Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 6:16 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Turning Turtle Hello All,Unfortunately at 1600 today while sailing alone in blustery wind on the Ottawa River with a reefed jib and full main I learned the answer to a question many of us have asked ourselves." If knocked down, will the M 15 continue heeling and finally turn turtle?" The answer "yes". In my case when the gust hit there was no time to steer off, cast off sheets or to take any other remedial action.I was in the water . Possibly had the drop boards been in place the disaster might have been lessened, but I do not know.Any way over I went with both sails set. Fortunately fellow boaters arrived within half an hour and two of us righted the boat as one would a dinghy,bailed a little and got towed back to our club. Drying out will take a while and the teasing will take even longer to fade. This 84 year old has come safely through a nasty experience and henceforth will at least keep the drop boards in place when sailing in gusty weather. A word to the wise.Cheers . RTH.

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Test
by George Iemmolo 26 Jun '15

26 Jun '15

I have responded to 2 e-mails on the capsize issue and neither have come thru. Have I been dropped from the list somehow, I do receive but my responses do not go thru. George

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Cruising Pamlico Sound from Swanquarter NC
by Michael Murphy 26 Jun '15

26 Jun '15

Located three blocks from the town center of Swanquarter NC (not to be confused with Swansboro to the south on the New River) is a double public ramp with floating piers protected with conveniently placed fender boards. A small shoal protects the canal entrance but with clear water it is easy to find the 4’ deep channel on its west side leading to Swanquater Bay & Pamlico Sound. The north shore of Pamlico Sound is a remote area bordered by marshes with well sheltered anchorages 15 to 30 NM apart. Numerous shallow bays offer some shelter from north winds but do little to protect from South, Easterly, or West winds. A long fetch of 20 to 40 miles allows waves to build and swells to create lumpy anchorages even after local winds die out. Earlier this year I did find decent shelter after a day of 15 to 16 knot winds behind a small group of trees growing on a hammock of dredged soil. On this trip I went 3 NM to the head of funnel shaped Juniper Bay before finding a spot without swells. Sailing the marshes is interesting since it is possible to come within 2-3 boat lengths of shore on your tacks. Occasional short beaches offer places to anchor to stretch your legs or beach comb for crab pot floats.

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FW: Turning Turtle
by George Iemmolo 25 Jun '15

25 Jun '15

-----Original Message----- From: George Iemmolo [mailto:griemmolo2@gamil.com] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:14 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Turning Turtle About 10 years ago I was sailing out of the Clearwater Sailing Center on a 17' rental and was knocked down by a wind burst that was created by wind funneling between to tall hotel buildings. I was knocked into the water without my life jacket on not good:-(, fortunately I was able to right the boat by standing on the keel as soon as it was up it started to sail as I had not had the presence of mind to release the sheets. I was able to grab a hold on the boat but could not lift myself (220 lbs) into the boat with out any assistance no ladder. There I was hanging on the back of the boat that was now sailing itself across Clearwater Bay. Thankfully the Sailing Center was keeping on eye out and notified the Coast Guard Station a 1/2 mile south of the Center and they came to the rescue a real comedy of errors on my part and PTL for the results. George -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Henry Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 11:15 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle My 23' Venture Newport Chiquita was knocked down by a microburst over 20 years ago. I couldn't release the sheets quickly enough before I tumbled into the lake. The sails managed to scoop up a ton of water; we were going at hull speed. The 600lb swing keel could not right the boat with the sails full of water. Water poured in the open hatches, she turned turtle, and sank in about three minutes. Henry M17 #310 Monita http://macgregor.sailboatowners.com/index.php?option=com_kb&Itemid=256&cat_i d=155&aid=7671&page=article&mn=25

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Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle
by Dan Farrell 25 Jun '15

25 Jun '15

I've often wondered if this ever happens. My old m17 #301 has no positive flotation I've ever found, and if imagine if it filled with water it would sink hastily. What surprised me about this story is that the body was able to go from capsize to turtle. From what source could come force sufficient to overpower the resistance of the sails through the water as well as lifting the ballast into the air? Sources I could imagine are distribution of crew weight or maybe that of heavy equipment, rotational momentum, or perhaps a strong current aligned with the direction of boats rotation. If the current actually helped force the boat the rest of the way over, I could see that, maybe combined with weight distribution (almost certainly on the Lee side after 65 degrees of tipping or so) and rotational momentum, overcoming the resistance of the sails through the water, especially heavily reefed. The question remains, how far over has anybody managed to go in an m17? Daniel Rich <danielgrich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >WOW! Thanks for the update. Excellent description. What an awful experience. I’m glad it all turned out well despite the disaster. You must have been totally shocked at how quickly your day went upside down so to speak. Just goes to show that despite our best efforts, anytime one is on the water there is danger. My goodness. > >Daniel >> On Jun 24, 2015, at 11:22 PM, Robert Hall <bert.hall(a)bell.net> wrote: >> >> Hello All, Thank you all for your comments, questions and good wishes.I was able to let go of the tiller, but not able to free the sheets as things happened so suddenly and forcefully. I did not fall onto the sail as it was well below the water by the time I freed my feet and swam,yes in a life jacket, to the stern. By that time the boat was completely upside down.Using the OB bracket I managed to boost myself onto the hull and lay alongside the keel to get my breath. Of course the drop keel had retracted into the shoal keel and stayed there till the boat was righted. Strangely while completely turtled the boat was quite level and stable in the water, probably because the sails were acting as a kind of keel. A passing boater stopped to help and I sent him to get members from my club. When the rescuers arrived I stayed on the hull and had these helpers tow me to deeper water and turn the bow of the M-15 towards the direction from which the wind was still blowing hard.One of the rescuers then joined me in the water and we righted the boat in two tries as one would a dinghy.Once right way up we got the sails down, furled in the case of the jib. By this time[one half hour after the incident] cold had set in and I got into a nearby cruiser to get warm and dry..Two people with buckets got some of the water out and my boat was towed to my club where members did a fantastic clean up and bail out job.Fortunately the water was sufficiently deep that even as I drifted awaiting rescue there was no damage to the mast or other standing rigging.That is as full an explanation as I can give,but you may be sure that my memory reflects what happened and I neither need nor want a photographic record. It is 0215 hours and I feel lucky to be able to write this account. >> -----Original Message----- From: Tom Smith >> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 9:53 PM >> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats >> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle >> >> I cannot imagine an M15 going turtle and staying that way if the sailor has >> had the presence of mind to let go the tiller and release the main sheet. >> I've been knocked down in both a 15 and 17, shipping many gallons of water >> over the combing, yet both boats righted themselves immediately, with me >> clinging wide-eyed to the opposite combing... >> >> Sailing M boats for 20 years, this is the first time I've heard of an M15 >> going over and staying that way. I'm sure this sailor is telling it like >> it is, but geez, this has to be one in a million. tom >> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Cliff Vaughan <cliff.vaughan(a)live.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Well from my experience with beach cats it's the sailor landing in the >>> middle of the sail that pushes it past the point of no return, but we were >>> not there to watch it happen. Until he gives more details of what happen, >>> just keep your hand on that main sheet. >>> >>> > From: picfo(a)comcast.net >>> > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:52:03 -0700 >>> > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle >>> > >>> > I was thinking more in terms of a 110 degree knock-down where the boat >>> just keeps going… >>> > >>> > Jim >>> > M-17 “Spirit” >>> > >>> > On Jun 24, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Cliff Vaughan <cliff.vaughan(a)live.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > With the mast intact, sails up there is more than enough resistance >>> from the water on the sails to keep any small boat from righting herself. >>> If the mast is stuck in the mud it will make even harder to right her. >>> > > >>> > >> From: openboatt(a)gmail.com >>> > >> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:11:58 -0700 >>> > >> To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> > >> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle >>> > >> >>> > >> Interesting. I've never heard of an M15 going and staying turtle. >>> Word to >>> > >> the wise I guess... tom >>> > >> >>> > >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Robert Hall <bert.hall(a)bell.net> >>> wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >>> Hello All,Unfortunately at 1600 today while sailing alone in >>> blustery >>> > >>> wind on the Ottawa River with a reefed jib and full main I learned >>> the >>> > >>> answer to a question many of us have asked ourselves.” If knocked >>> down, >>> > >>> will the M 15 continue heeling and finally turn turtle?” The answer >>> “yes”. >>> > >>> In my case when the gust hit there was no time to steer off, cast > >>> off >>> > >>> sheets or to take any other remedial action.I was in the water . >>> Possibly >>> > >>> had the drop boards been in place the disaster might have been >>> lessened, >>> > >>> but I do not know.Any way over I went with both sails set. >>> Fortunately >>> > >>> fellow boaters arrived within half an hour and two of us righted the >>> boat >>> > >>> as one would a dinghy,bailed a little and got towed back to our > >>> club. >>> > >>> Drying out will take a while and the teasing will take even longer >>> to fade. >>> > >>> This 84 year old has come safely through a nasty experience and >>> henceforth >>> > >>> will at least keep the drop boards in place when sailing in gusty >>> weather. >>> > >>> A word to the wise.Cheers . RTH. >>> > >>> >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> > >

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Turning Turtle
by Robert Hall 25 Jun '15

25 Jun '15

Hello All,Unfortunately at 1600 today while sailing alone in blustery wind on the Ottawa River with a reefed jib and full main I learned the answer to a question many of us have asked ourselves.” If knocked down, will the M 15 continue heeling and finally turn turtle?” The answer “yes”. In my case when the gust hit there was no time to steer off, cast off sheets or to take any other remedial action.I was in the water . Possibly had the drop boards been in place the disaster might have been lessened, but I do not know.Any way over I went with both sails set. Fortunately fellow boaters arrived within half an hour and two of us righted the boat as one would a dinghy,bailed a little and got towed back to our club. Drying out will take a while and the teasing will take even longer to fade. This 84 year old has come safely through a nasty experience and henceforth will at least keep the drop boards in place when sailing in gusty weather. A word to the wise.Cheers . RTH.

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Turn Turtle - definition
by David Grah 25 Jun '15

25 Jun '15

I think we are all very interested in the story of a Montgomery 15 going over but am not sure we are all using the same language. I thought to "turn turtle" meant for a boat to turn completely upside down in the water - keel straight up, mast straight down - and stay that way, sort of like a turtle that is rolled onto its back. I get the impression many of us are not talking about this situation in this discussion when we say "turn turtle". I can easily imagine a boat like a Montgomery 15 being knocked down, loosing its crew, and the cabin filling with water as a result, but that process not resulting in the keel of the boat sticking straight up in the air for an extended period of time. I would imagine the swamped - or at least semi-swamped - boat may still want to right itself over time unless sail, wave, or other forces are acting to keep it in some other orientation. This situation would seem more like a "capsize" to me. Just doing quick internet searches did not turn up precise definitions for "turn turtle" and "capsize" so these very well may be my own definitions. In any event, I wonder if we are all talking about the same thing when we use the term "turn turtle". David GrahBishop CaliforniaMontgomery 15 - Sky

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Turn Turtle - definiton...more...
by David Grah 25 Jun '15

25 Jun '15

I wish I had seen this before sending my last email, although I think much of it still applies. Robert Hall, thanks very much for sharing this experience with the rest of us. We all can learn a lot because of it and I am glad you are okay! Message: 5 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 02:22:13 -0400 From: Robert Hall <bert.hall(a)bell.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP143919F4A8C35F89EBC0ACC8AAE0(a)phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Hello All, Thank you all for your comments, questions and good wishes.I was able to let go of the tiller, but not able to free the sheets as things happened so suddenly and forcefully. I did not fall onto the sail as it was well below the water by the time I freed my feet and swam,yes in a life jacket, to the stern. By that time the boat was completely upside down.Using the OB bracket I managed to boost myself onto the hull and lay alongside the keel to get my breath. Of course the drop keel had retracted into the shoal keel and stayed there till the boat was righted. Strangely while completely turtled the boat was quite level and stable in the water, probably because the sails were acting as a kind of keel. A passing boater stopped to help and I sent him to get members from my club. When the rescuers arrived I stayed on the hull and had these helpers tow me to deeper water and turn the bow of the M-15 towards the direction from which the wind was still blowing hard.One of the rescuers then joined me in the water and we righted the boat in two tries as one would a dinghy.Once right way up we got the sails down, furled in the case of the jib. By this time[one half hour after the incident] cold had set in and I got into a nearby cruiser to get warm and dry..Two people with buckets got some of the water out and my boat was towed to my club where members did a fantastic clean up and bail out job.Fortunately the water was sufficiently deep that even as I drifted awaiting rescue there was no damage to the mast or other standing rigging.That is as full an explanation as I can give,but you may be sure that my memory reflects what happened and I neither need nor want a photographic record. It is 0215 hours and I feel lucky to be able to write this account.

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Turning Turtle
by Thomas Buzzi 25 Jun '15

25 Jun '15

Putting the drop boards in, though a pain to step over in a 17', and having at least the bottom one barrel bolted in place so that the sill is about at the height of the coamings is good insurance. I added a step to my cockpit the top of which comes almost even with the companionway opening. It facilitates stepping over that bottom drop board. It also turned out to be a nifty place to attach my mainsheet traveler. I was able to thoroughly close about nine bolt holes in the cockpit sole and the mainsheet has a much fairer lead to the boom. Very glad this gentleman survived the experience. Does it EVER warm up in the Ottawa River?? I know Long Island Sound off Connecticut never really warms up in the summer and that body of water is a bit further south than the Ottawa. Sale safely, Tom B.

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