October 2008 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Re: M_Boats: Christmas Light Parade
by NummiJ＠aol.com 20 Oct '08

20 Oct '08

What kind of lights will you use? Our water gets hard by then. M17 Lenta Kala Dale Nummi 1910 Cumming Ave Superior, WI 54880 715-392-5853 **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

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Christmas Light Parade
by jim sadler 20 Oct '08

20 Oct '08

Any of you skipper going to sail in light parades? Might be fun to have a flotilla on Montgomery's with Christmas lights. I am going to join the Dana Pointe light parade on Sat Dec 13. Any of you skippers want to throw in? Capt'n Jim Sadler Skipper sailing vessel Pelican M-15 -- Ευχαριστώ (Thanks in Greek) JIm Sadler

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Re: M_Boats: Bilge full of water
by bownez＠juno.com 19 Oct '08

19 Oct '08

Gordon, Howard, I do not have a bilge either in my 1976 M17. I believe Jerry has mentioned not all M17's have them. (no place to store the boxed wine or stray reserve cans of beer). Bones ____________________________________________________________ Visa, MasterCard, AMEX & Discover. Compare Offers & Apply Online. Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2HXLPOa1moSpcLCk9TO2CBb…

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last message
by jerry 18 Oct '08

18 Oct '08

Sorry about the last unfinished message regarding blistering. I was just getting started when my damned computor decided to send it- it's been doing things like that lately; guess I need a bigger hammer. What I was trying to say was that sometime in the in the early 70's many of we builders started using a catalyst; called HiPoint 180 because we found that the parts made from it had much less porosity in the gel coat, and probably in the laminate as well, altho there was no way to tell that I could think of because you couldn't see it in the laminate. Shortly after that the EPA (or was it the Air Quality Control Board?) mandated that the manufacturer of 180 reduce the oxygen content, putting it in line with the product of its inferior competition. I heard at the time that this was a result of lobbying by the other chem companies. When I heard that 180 was not going to be available I bought an old refrigerator and bought several cases of 180 which lasted me for several years. I heard of no blisters on my boats during those years. The catalyst used for polye\sters (including vinylester and Ashland's AME; great stuff) is MEK Peroxide and it works by oxydizing the resin, which is a polymer. At the time someone from one of the resin companies told me that there is an ideal ration of oxygen in catalyst, which causes more of the solvents to leave the curing resin and go into the air. I suppose it's the opinion of the EPA that it's better that the solvents are in the resin than in the air, even tho its got to be an extremely small amount in the general scheme of things. At any rate we still have porosity problems in gel coat and resin, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that the porosity is connected with blisters. Better living thru bigger government, I guess is the theory. jerry

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Help: bottom paint, Interlux 2000 or none?
by Andrei Caldararu 18 Oct '08

18 Oct '08

Dear Monty sailors, here is a difficult question. I own a 1982 M-17, and love it. It's never been kept in the water, and so the bottom is the original gelcoat, unpainted. I generally sail it one afternoon at a time, on the relatively small lakes here in Madison, WI, although every once in a while I would trailer it to a bigger lake. This past summer (I got the boat at beginning of July) the boat was kept on its trailer, and each time I sailed I had to do the whole rigging/derigging game. I am now probably as good at it as I will ever get, and it takes about 50 minutes to put it up, and the same amount to take it down. Unfortunately I am also quite busy, with two kids and a full time job. Because of this, there were quite a few times I didn't go out because there was not enough time to put it up, take it down, and also sail a fair amount. A friend of mine who has a house on the lake was kind enough to offer me to start using his mooring, for free, for the foreseeable future. This would obviously solve the above problem, but I need to start thinking about bottom paint. Hoopers in Minnesota, where the boat is now for some small repair, offered me the following options: a) Just bottom paint, about $500. b) Interlux 2000E barrier coat (5 coats) + bottom paint $1750 On top of this expense I am looking at another $3-400 for a small dinghy and outboard to get to the boat. The main question I have is: is it worth it? Should I keep trailer sailing the boat (at a cost of about $250/summer for parking), get just the bottom paint and risk gelcoat blistering, or get the full deal. Any opinions? My gut feeling is that if possible I would like to try to keep this boat for a long time, I really like the way it handles. It's just that $2000 is exactly half of what I paid for it!! (Unfortunately there is no place in Madison to keep a boat rigged near the water, and I don't have the time nor the place to put the boat up on a lift to do the bottom painting myself.) Any advice will be highly appreciated. Thanks, Andrei.

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WARNING ABOUT A BARRIER COAT
by Flickasf＠aol.com 18 Oct '08

18 Oct '08

Avoid the pitfall that I fell into. Before coating the board and trunk, measure the tolerances between the two. I did not do this. I put 20 mil of Interlux 2000E on the inside of the trunk and on the board, and then coated the board with 3 coats of Interlux VC Performance Epoxy with Teflon. (I had removed the board.) When I checked to see if the board would fit, it did not. I had to sand the high spots on the board and reapply the 2000E with less coats. I haven't tried refitting the board yet. I will before applying the VC on it and inside the board trunk. Bert M 15, Zephyr ************** New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

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Re: M_Boats: Help: bottom paint, Interlux 2000 or none?
by Larry E Yake 17 Oct '08

17 Oct '08

Wow, Sean! You ought to publish this. Lots of hard earned experience speaking here. Larry On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:12:18 EDT Nebwest2(a)aol.com writes: > I'll weigh in on the barrier coat discussion with another (long) > opinion > (which is worth exactly what you paid for it!) > > I can tell you from experience that blisters are something that you > do not > want to deal with. Period. It is either an extremely expensive > repair to have > someone else fix the problem, or and expensive, time > consuming,physical,dirty, > nasty job to do yourself. Don't believe me? then check this > link.... > > _http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/?g=20711458&cr=1_ > (http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/?g=20711458&cr=1) > > Granted...I was dealing with a worse case scenario (26 straight > years in > warm salt water 24/7/365), but nevertheless, you don't want to go > down this road > if you don't have to! I promise you. I was the Asst. Manager of a > West > Marine (Worst Marine???) for three years and helped many a customer > who was > dealing with the blister dilemma over that time. It's a bad deal no > matter what > level you deal with it at. > > One of the problems when dealing with the decision of whether or not > it > barrier coat is that you can't judge the ability of your particular > hull to > resist blistering based upon the performance of your buddy's > similar boat. Every > hull is a different lay-up and may react differently depending on > the > quality control of the rein mixture. The blistering process begins > with osmosis > drawing water behind the gelcoat into microscopic voids or pockets. > The problem > really begins when the water interacts with minute amounts of > uncured resin > or hardener that may be left within the cured resin from minute > variations of > the original hardener/resin mix ratio. If everything was not mixed > exactly > in the right ratios, there may remain miniscule amounts of uncured > resin or > hardener within the cured resin. When the water enters these pockets > there is a > chemical reaction with the uncured resin. Here's where the real > problem > starts. When the water and resin interact they produce an acid that > has a > molecular structure that is larger in size than original water > molecule. So, that > porosity that allowed the water to enter in now acts like a one way > door. Water > can get in, but the newly formed acid cannot get back out. The acid > now > starts to work it's way through the resin which causes the blister > to start to > swell. When the blister swells it causes it to draw more water in, > which causes > more acid, which causes more swelling, which draws more > water....you can > see where this is going. It's a self perpetuating cycle. > > Some boats will resist blistering for years upon years, while others > will > show signs within a season. You just aren't going to know until the > boat sits > in the water. Additionally, hulls that were laid up during the > years of the > first gasoline shortages seem to be more prone to blistering, as > the newer and > more resistant vinylester gelcoats were not in play, and resin > manufacturers > were manipulating formulas to use less petro-chemical products in > the > formulation of the resins to keep costs down. The newer vinylester > resins reportedly > due a superior job of resisting blisters. > > Barrier coat such as Interlux 2000E forms an actual watertight > shell around > your hull. BUT, only if you apply it to the required 10mil dry film > > thickness. That usually requires 4-5 coats. If you want it really > smooth, and you are > applying by roller like I did you will need to apply a couple of > extra coats > so you can come back and remove the roller stipple without taking > the > thickness below the required 10mils. At $120/gallon it's not a > cheap product. In my > opinion applying it in any other manor than that specifically > called for by > the manufacturer is a waste. That includes prepping the area with > the > specified proprietary cleaning products even though they too are > expensive. Why? > 'Cause I can't tell you how many customers I had who were smarter > than the > manufacturer and had their own application methods and shortcuts > which saved them > hundreds of dollars and hours of time. Of course I'm sure you > figured out > already that those were the customers almost every time that > returned to the > store crying the blues about how the product didn't work, didn't > stick, wasn't > worth a darn, etc. Then they had to go through the not-to-enjoyable > process > of removing the mess they had created just to get back to a bare > hull so they > could start over and do it right. Also, if it takes 10 mils to get > it > watertight, which is the goal, why would you even consider applying > it thinner, > thus spending all that money but not getting the protection you > desire? > > One other thing to consider is that working on a lapstrake hull is > MUCH more > labor intensive then a smooth hull. You only want to do it once. > Cleaning > out the angles between the strakes is extremely difficult and > unpleasant work. > > The barrier coat works when applied and applied correctly. It should > prevent > you from having to ever go through the blister process. One caution > though: > Make sure your hull is DRY before applying the barrier coat. > Dauntless was > taken to a boat yard about three years prior to us purchasing her, > for a > blister problem. The boat yard suggested grinding and filling the > large blisters > and then a barrier coat before bottom paint. The previous owner had > this done > and I am sure it wasn't cheap. Well, to a boatyard time is money. > They get > paid when the job is done. Although some blisters were filled, > nothing was > given ample time to dry out. Drying laminate in a humid atmosphere > like Florida > takes a long time.....months. I'm not sure how long they dried her > out but it > wasn't long enough. They sealed her up with barrier coat and applied > bottom > paint. I'm sure she looked great when she went back into the water. > > Unfortunately, she blistered right through the barrier coat from the > backside due to > the laminate not being dry. Do it right the first time. After many > hours of > stripping her hull back to the original gelcoat, we let her sit with > the > blisters ground out in the AZ dessert air. The single digit humidity > eventually got > her dried out but it took months. Then I waited a couple more months > to be > sure before filling the blisters and re-applying the barrier coat. > We are going > on three years now. She is kept in a wet slip for 6 months each > year and > sailed for many extended trips throughout the other 6 months of the > year. We > have not had a single sign of any blisters at all. > > So that's my take on barrier coat. My experience is that applied > correctly > it works. If you are not going to follow the manufacturers > directions exactly, > you might as well throw your money in the garbage can and you'll be > ahead of > the game. The when you hull blisters, you at least won't have to > sand all > that stuff you applied incorrectly off before you start the blister > repair > process. > > Bottom paint.....that's a whole other discussion! However, if you > are not > needing anti-fouling protection you can barrier coat and leave it at > that. I > had another boat that I did that to and it made a nice light grey > bottom. I > conferred with an Interlux rep before doing this and they said it > was no > problem. > > Sure does make keeping the boat on the trailer look more enticing, > doesn't > it? But, you'll never use your boat like you will if it's in the > water, rigged > and ready to go. It's totally worth it. > > Good luck! > > Sean > Montgomery 23 "Dauntless" > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your > destination. > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > ____________________________________________________________ Stuck in a dead end job?? Click to start living your dreams by earning an online degree. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nNfaensoBpkLwwtQPW2X9BZm…

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Help: bottom paint, Interlux 2000 or none?
by Nebwest2＠aol.com 17 Oct '08

17 Oct '08

I'll weigh in on the barrier coat discussion with another (long) opinion (which is worth exactly what you paid for it!) I can tell you from experience that blisters are something that you do not want to deal with. Period. It is either an extremely expensive repair to have someone else fix the problem, or and expensive, time consuming,physical,dirty, nasty job to do yourself. Don't believe me? then check this link.... _http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/?g=20711458&cr=1_ (http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/?g=20711458&cr=1) Granted...I was dealing with a worse case scenario (26 straight years in warm salt water 24/7/365), but nevertheless, you don't want to go down this road if you don't have to! I promise you. I was the Asst. Manager of a West Marine (Worst Marine???) for three years and helped many a customer who was dealing with the blister dilemma over that time. It's a bad deal no matter what level you deal with it at. One of the problems when dealing with the decision of whether or not it barrier coat is that you can't judge the ability of your particular hull to resist blistering based upon the performance of your buddy's similar boat. Every hull is a different lay-up and may react differently depending on the quality control of the rein mixture. The blistering process begins with osmosis drawing water behind the gelcoat into microscopic voids or pockets. The problem really begins when the water interacts with minute amounts of uncured resin or hardener that may be left within the cured resin from minute variations of the original hardener/resin mix ratio. If everything was not mixed exactly in the right ratios, there may remain miniscule amounts of uncured resin or hardener within the cured resin. When the water enters these pockets there is a chemical reaction with the uncured resin. Here's where the real problem starts. When the water and resin interact they produce an acid that has a molecular structure that is larger in size than original water molecule. So, that porosity that allowed the water to enter in now acts like a one way door. Water can get in, but the newly formed acid cannot get back out. The acid now starts to work it's way through the resin which causes the blister to start to swell. When the blister swells it causes it to draw more water in, which causes more acid, which causes more swelling, which draws more water....you can see where this is going. It's a self perpetuating cycle. Some boats will resist blistering for years upon years, while others will show signs within a season. You just aren't going to know until the boat sits in the water. Additionally, hulls that were laid up during the years of the first gasoline shortages seem to be more prone to blistering, as the newer and more resistant vinylester gelcoats were not in play, and resin manufacturers were manipulating formulas to use less petro-chemical products in the formulation of the resins to keep costs down. The newer vinylester resins reportedly due a superior job of resisting blisters. Barrier coat such as Interlux 2000E forms an actual watertight shell around your hull. BUT, only if you apply it to the required 10mil dry film thickness. That usually requires 4-5 coats. If you want it really smooth, and you are applying by roller like I did you will need to apply a couple of extra coats so you can come back and remove the roller stipple without taking the thickness below the required 10mils. At $120/gallon it's not a cheap product. In my opinion applying it in any other manor than that specifically called for by the manufacturer is a waste. That includes prepping the area with the specified proprietary cleaning products even though they too are expensive. Why? 'Cause I can't tell you how many customers I had who were smarter than the manufacturer and had their own application methods and shortcuts which saved them hundreds of dollars and hours of time. Of course I'm sure you figured out already that those were the customers almost every time that returned to the store crying the blues about how the product didn't work, didn't stick, wasn't worth a darn, etc. Then they had to go through the not-to-enjoyable process of removing the mess they had created just to get back to a bare hull so they could start over and do it right. Also, if it takes 10 mils to get it watertight, which is the goal, why would you even consider applying it thinner, thus spending all that money but not getting the protection you desire? One other thing to consider is that working on a lapstrake hull is MUCH more labor intensive then a smooth hull. You only want to do it once. Cleaning out the angles between the strakes is extremely difficult and unpleasant work. The barrier coat works when applied and applied correctly. It should prevent you from having to ever go through the blister process. One caution though: Make sure your hull is DRY before applying the barrier coat. Dauntless was taken to a boat yard about three years prior to us purchasing her, for a blister problem. The boat yard suggested grinding and filling the large blisters and then a barrier coat before bottom paint. The previous owner had this done and I am sure it wasn't cheap. Well, to a boatyard time is money. They get paid when the job is done. Although some blisters were filled, nothing was given ample time to dry out. Drying laminate in a humid atmosphere like Florida takes a long time.....months. I'm not sure how long they dried her out but it wasn't long enough. They sealed her up with barrier coat and applied bottom paint. I'm sure she looked great when she went back into the water. Unfortunately, she blistered right through the barrier coat from the backside due to the laminate not being dry. Do it right the first time. After many hours of stripping her hull back to the original gelcoat, we let her sit with the blisters ground out in the AZ dessert air. The single digit humidity eventually got her dried out but it took months. Then I waited a couple more months to be sure before filling the blisters and re-applying the barrier coat. We are going on three years now. She is kept in a wet slip for 6 months each year and sailed for many extended trips throughout the other 6 months of the year. We have not had a single sign of any blisters at all. So that's my take on barrier coat. My experience is that applied correctly it works. If you are not going to follow the manufacturers directions exactly, you might as well throw your money in the garbage can and you'll be ahead of the game. The when you hull blisters, you at least won't have to sand all that stuff you applied incorrectly off before you start the blister repair process. Bottom paint.....that's a whole other discussion! However, if you are not needing anti-fouling protection you can barrier coat and leave it at that. I had another boat that I did that to and it made a nice light grey bottom. I conferred with an Interlux rep before doing this and they said it was no problem. Sure does make keeping the boat on the trailer look more enticing, doesn't it? But, you'll never use your boat like you will if it's in the water, rigged and ready to go. It's totally worth it. Good luck! Sean Montgomery 23 "Dauntless" **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

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Re: M_Boats: Help: bottom paint, Interlux 2000 or none?
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 17 Oct '08

17 Oct '08

Andrei, If I were going to store my boat in the water and wanted good protection from blisters I would apply 5 to 7 coats of Interlux 2000/2001 barrier coat with the applications EXACTLY as directions (notably -tack time, and mixing components). I have heard anecdotally, that cool fresh water is less prone to causing blisters - but do you want to be a part of the ongoing test? Probably not. Barrier coat and dry bilges are the best defense against blistering in your case. FWIW -I base my opinion on 30 years of maintaining late 60's thru late 90's built polyester resin sailboats in warm freshwater as a former marina operator. If you put the boat in the water, use barrier coat for your best protection for what you have, anti-fouling is optional. IMHO worth all of what was charged. Just another to add to your confusion - sorry. Take Care, Have Fun, Go Sailing! GO M-17 # 316a LB/GF! In a message dated 10/17/2008 7:13:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, andreic(a)math.wisc.edu writes: It seems like the opinions on this topic are as varied as the people who sail M-17's: I got one person who says no way without barrier coat, one who says use barrier coat but less of it, one who says it's OK to go without it, and one who says keep the boat on the trailer :-) Could someone else weigh in on this issue to at least hopefully sway the balance one way or another? Thanks, Andrei. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

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Spider poop!
by Brian Gilbert 16 Oct '08

16 Oct '08

Hi Steve and Howard: Thanks for the ideas... I've got some Tilex, that was my next plan of attack, since the gelcoat is pretty much pinholed everywhere, and the tiny black dots need to be addressed, too. I remembered this being discussed, but couldn't remember the link... Thanks again BG On Oct 10, 2008, at 8:16 PM, montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > Try Simple Green and if that fails Tilex mold and mildew remover. When > I spray that on, anything black just melts off. A light scrub, a rinse > and after that, you need sunglasses. It gets really white. Brian Gilbert Location Audio for Video and Film

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