January 2005 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

The Gelcoat Miracle
by Rick Langer 29 Jan '05

29 Jan '05

Craig, John, and Bob, Thanks for the help. I'm going to try the Penetrol, although first I have to remove the oxidation. I found this supplier for AquaBuff 2000 on sale for $10.95 a pound. It's regularly $14.95. http://www.aqua-buff.com/ (this was a link from Bob's link) The Aqua Buff 2000 appears to be more difficult to use comparing their instructions and trouble shooting to John's recommendation for the 3M Restorer and Wax ($11.39 plus $3.00 ORMD fee at Defender). Seems like the Penetrol would remove the wax in the 3M product whereas the Aqua Buff doesn't have wax. Rick Langer > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:00:05 -0500 > From: "Craig F. Honshell" <chonshell(a)ia4u.net> > Subject: M_Boats: hi, rick . . . > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Message-ID: <001801c50342$5fe5fcc0$5941b3cf@D89X0M51> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > I am by no means the expert on this, so I hope others will weigh in . . . But I'll > repeat what I know, and hopefully get it right . . . > > Rubbing compound is a mild abrasive suspended in a paste, a paste much like liquid > wax for a car, and is a safe way to take the oxidation out of gelcoat . . . It comes > in degrees of abrasiveness and is available at marine outlets . . . It can be applied > with an orbital polisher, but one should take care not to use too much pressure and > "burn" the gelcoat, which I believe will yellow when damaged by heat. > > Penetrol, and I'm not sure of the spelling, is a paint additive . . . I think for > enamel paint . . . I believe it's a solvent, but someone please correct me if I'm > wrong . . . I believe it is available as "Marine Penetrol", but I've used the stuff > available at any hardware store . . . It is applied, left very briefly, and wiped > off, leaving a rich shine in the gelcoat . . . It's most impressive use I've seen is > Larry Yake's yellow-hulled M17, Tullamore . . . > > Vertglass was one brand of miracle fiberglass restorer . . . I don't know if it's > available anymore . . . Poliglow is another brand, one, I believe, that received high > marks from Practical Sailor magazine. I'm not sure what the miracle restorers do, if > they're like rubbing compound and wax in one or what, but Poliglow would basically > used to preserve the gelcoat's finish, like wax . . . I think . . . Please correct me > if I'm wrong . . . I believe these miracle restorers tout that they can be used on > oxidized gelcoat, skip the rubbing compound, and produce good results, but we had > much better success with Vertglass after using rubbing compound first . . . > > These are three steps I'm considering, but there's more than one way to skin this > cat, and West Marine sells complete kits for gelcoat care . . . I think Star Bright > caries a variation of every gelcoat, metal and wood preservative/restorer conceivable > . . . > > All the products make magnificent claims . . . > > But I saw pics of Tod's Busca after the Poliglow, don't know what steps he used > before, and it was very impressive . . . > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rick Langer > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:54 AM > Subject: i was thinkin' . . . too > > Craig, > > My blue hull is oxidized too and I'd like to bring it back. I have a 9" > compounder and a Cyclo random orbital polisher which I've used to polish a > vintage Airstream trailer. I'm guessing that polishing fiberglass is a lot > easier than aluminum, but I'm a bit confused i.e. rubbing compound, > Penetrol(?), Poliglow, Vertglass. > > I wonder if you could give us a brief tutorial on bringing back and keeping > the shine on our boats? > > BTW, my boat has repaired gouges, but the color match is so bad that I wish > they were left alone. I went through a similar thing when polishing my > Airstream. The experts advised me to leave the gouges and large scratches > alone and just polish them, kind of adds character. I think they were > right. > > Thanks, > Rick Langer > M15 #337 > > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:29:50 -0500 > From: "Craig F. Honshell" <chonshell(a)ia4u.net> > Subject: M_Boats: i was thinkin' . . . > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Message-ID: <009401c50296$8349d0d0$3241b3cf@D89X0M51> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > . . . this spring that I'd like to buff out my hull's oxidation, then go > over it > completely with Penetrol, then finish it with Poliglow or comparable > miracle > restorative . . . I think we used "Vertglass", something like that, on the > Flicka one > year . . . Don't know if that stuff is still available . . . > > I have gouges in my shear stripe that aren't going to go away without > major > restoration, but perhaps I can draw the eye away from them with a really > shiny hull . > . . :-) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:10:17 EST > From: JazzYachts(a)aol.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: The Gelcoat Miracle > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Message-ID: <1e3.33b4141e.2f285609(a)aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > I can safely plug this product, because CLC does NOT sell it, nor have I any > financial stake in it: > > 3M #9006 Marine Restorer and Wax > _http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?UUUUUUC04ehUnx7UGx7UUUAjNe Xt > tttS_ > (http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?UUUUUUC04ehUnx7UGx7UUUAjNe XttttS) - > > This is a moderately aggressive paste wax that is exceptionally easy to use > but brings back a deep gloss quickly. Seems like the best of all worlds. > One of the helpful attributes is that you don't have to wait for the wax to dry > before you start buffing; slobber it on and buff it off as quickly as you > put it on. Preferably with a powered buffing pad. (A 3M pad on a drill motor > will be more than sufficient.) > > I have brought back to life the chalkiest gelcoats with this stuff. I've > also passed it on to many friends who have reported instant success. 1970's > chalky gelcoat to nearly-new gloss in a couple of hours. > > Cheers, > John C. Harris > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:41:10 -0800 > From: Bob <Bobeeg(a)earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: The Gelcoat Miracle > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Message-ID: <41F71156.7010208(a)earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > We use AquaBuff 2000. Over the years while visiting several fiberglass > repair > amd gelcoat shops they all used Aqua Buff 2000. > > http://www.duratec1.com/dp17-18.html > > We buy it in 5 gallon pails. We mix it with Saftey Klean Yellow paste wax on > a Milwaulkee power buffer. > > It really makes a difference what pad and machine is used. Results are > excellent. > > Bob >

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New Pics
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 29 Jan '05

29 Jan '05

Hi All, Just added an album titled "Boat Lettering". Bill Sylvester's 1978 M-17 "Endelig" Go to http://www.funtigo.com/MSOG?b=217853&c=1789789&p=start Enjoy the pictures... Bill www.MSOG.funtigo.com

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Answers from Funtigo
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 27 Jan '05

27 Jan '05

Hi All, Got an answer back from Funtigo. Help will come soon. Must be growing pains. Bill www.MSOG.funtigo.com In a message dated 1/27/2005 2:42:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, help(a)funtigo.com writes: Currently, you can only use Internet Explorer to edit your site. We are currently working to make this work with Netscape and Firefox as well. We hope to have this as soon as possible. Steve Help Desk

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Re: M_Boats: M17 Rudders
by Larry E Yake 26 Jan '05

26 Jan '05

OK, that's what I was afraid of. I'll rebuild it as it was. I'm talking with Ida Sailor about building a balanced kick-up rudder for those shallow water trips. Thanks, Larry On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:56:59 -0800 "jerry" <jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org> writes: > No. > > Jerry > jerrymontgomery.org > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry E Yake" <leyake(a)juno.com> > To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Rudders > > > > Thanks, Jerry. I figured it couldn't be too substantial or you > never > > would have changed it. If I reshape the leading edge of the rudder > to > > match the shape of the piece I removed, I will have a blade > roughly 9 > > inches wide. Is that enough? > > Larry > > > > On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:17:46 -0800 "jerry" > <jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org> > > writes: > > > Larry- You are right about the rudder being the original, and it > was > > > designed for the also original fixed keel version. I eliminated > > > > the > > > couterbalanced part and re-configured the rudder sometime after > > > > that. Not > > > much difference in feel, but you lose the power steering > feature. > > > No big > > > deal. > > > Jerry > > > jerrymontgomery.org > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Larry E Yake" <leyake(a)juno.com> > > > To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:02 PM > > > Subject: M_Boats: M17 Rudders > > > > > > > > > > This question is for Jerry or anyone who has experience with > both > > > the old > > > > style M17 rudder with the "stepped forward" leading edge below > the > > > hull, > > > > and the newer style "straight edge" raiseable rudder. > > > > > > > > I have the older style and am in the process of refinishing > and > > > resealing > > > > it. The seam between the main body of the rudder and the > attached > > > leading > > > > edge portion (with 3 - 1/2" wood dowels) had opened and was > > > allowing > > > > moisture into the wood. In order to reseal it, I have removed > it > > > to clean > > > > the surfaces. I am wondering if this would be a good time to > > > convert it > > > > to the raiseable "straight edge" type. It has been an > > > inconvenience a few > > > > times not being able to raise the rudder, but it is my > > > understanding that > > > > the "stepped forward" rudder was the original Lyle Hess design > to > > > better > > > > balance the helm. It certain is well balanced. My question is > how > > > much > > > > balance would I lose going to the newer design? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Larry Yake > > > > M17, #200 > > > > Tullamore > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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Re: M_Boats: M17 Rudders
by Larry E Yake 26 Jan '05

26 Jan '05

Thanks, Jerry. I figured it couldn't be too substantial or you never would have changed it. If I reshape the leading edge of the rudder to match the shape of the piece I removed, I will have a blade roughly 9 inches wide. Is that enough? Larry On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:17:46 -0800 "jerry" <jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org> writes: > Larry- You are right about the rudder being the original, and it was > designed for the also original fixed keel version. I eliminated > the > couterbalanced part and re-configured the rudder sometime after > that. Not > much difference in feel, but you lose the power steering feature. > No big > deal. > Jerry > jerrymontgomery.org > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry E Yake" <leyake(a)juno.com> > To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:02 PM > Subject: M_Boats: M17 Rudders > > > > This question is for Jerry or anyone who has experience with both > the old > > style M17 rudder with the "stepped forward" leading edge below the > hull, > > and the newer style "straight edge" raiseable rudder. > > > > I have the older style and am in the process of refinishing and > resealing > > it. The seam between the main body of the rudder and the attached > leading > > edge portion (with 3 - 1/2" wood dowels) had opened and was > allowing > > moisture into the wood. In order to reseal it, I have removed it > to clean > > the surfaces. I am wondering if this would be a good time to > convert it > > to the raiseable "straight edge" type. It has been an > inconvenience a few > > times not being able to raise the rudder, but it is my > understanding that > > the "stepped forward" rudder was the original Lyle Hess design to > better > > balance the helm. It certain is well balanced. My question is how > much > > balance would I lose going to the newer design? > > > > Thanks, > > Larry Yake > > M17, #200 > > Tullamore > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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Re: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 23, Issue 29
by david_hill＠idg.com 26 Jan '05

26 Jan '05

Message: 6 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:08:50 -0500 From: <htmills(a)bright.net> Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 23, Issue 25 To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <000e01c50269$aaf287d0$e69ddb42@HTM031103> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David, Did that picture in my later post help? If you still need more clarification I could sketch something up. Tod -------------------- Thanks, Tod. Yes it makes sense now. I'm going to play with the idea when the four feet of snow around the boat melt! David M17 "Grouper"

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Re: M_Boats: The Gelcoat Miracle
by JazzYachts＠aol.com 26 Jan '05

26 Jan '05

I can safely plug this product, because CLC does NOT sell it, nor have I any financial stake in it: 3M #9006 Marine Restorer and Wax _http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?UUUUUUC04ehUnx7UGx7UUUAjN… tttS_ (http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?UUUUUUC04ehUnx7UGx7UUUAjNe…) - This is a moderately aggressive paste wax that is exceptionally easy to use but brings back a deep gloss quickly. Seems like the best of all worlds. One of the helpful attributes is that you don't have to wait for the wax to dry before you start buffing; slobber it on and buff it off as quickly as you put it on. Preferably with a powered buffing pad. (A 3M pad on a drill motor will be more than sufficient.) I have brought back to life the chalkiest gelcoats with this stuff. I've also passed it on to many friends who have reported instant success. 1970's chalky gelcoat to nearly-new gloss in a couple of hours. Cheers, John C. Harris

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i was thinkin' . . . too
by Rick Langer 25 Jan '05

25 Jan '05

Craig, My blue hull is oxidized too and I'd like to bring it back. I have a 9" compounder and a Cyclo random orbital polisher which I've used to polish a vintage Airstream trailer. I'm guessing that polishing fiberglass is a lot easier than aluminum, but I'm a bit confused i.e. rubbing compound, Penetrol(?), Poliglow, Vertglass. I wonder if you could give us a brief tutorial on bringing back and keeping the shine on our boats? BTW, my boat has repaired gouges, but the color match is so bad that I wish they were left alone. I went through a similar thing when polishing my Airstream. The experts advised me to leave the gouges and large scratches alone and just polish them, kind of adds character. I think they were right. Thanks, Rick Langer M15 #337 > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:29:50 -0500 > From: "Craig F. Honshell" <chonshell(a)ia4u.net> > Subject: M_Boats: i was thinkin' . . . > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Message-ID: <009401c50296$8349d0d0$3241b3cf@D89X0M51> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > . . . this spring that I'd like to buff out my hull's oxidation, then go over it > completely with Penetrol, then finish it with Poliglow or comparable miracle > restorative . . . I think we used "Vertglass", something like that, on the Flicka one > year . . . Don't know if that stuff is still available . . . > > I have gouges in my shear stripe that aren't going to go away without major > restoration, but perhaps I can draw the eye away from them with a really shiny hull . > . . :-) >

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Re: M_Boats: Re: M17 Rudder
by Larry E Yake 25 Jan '05

25 Jan '05

Thanks for the measurements, Tod. I would be removing 3" of the 12" chord (leading edge to trailing edge) at the top of the balanced section (about 25%), and about 2" of the 10" chord at the tip (about 20%). A fairly substantial amount of the below waterline area. I don't think I'll do it. It's too sweet of a rudder to mess it up. It's just going to take a lot of finish work to rebuild it, because of some warping caused by the moisture that got in. I think I'll see if Ida Sailor will build me a balanced kick-up rudder and keep this one stock. Larry On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:52:54 -0500 <htmills(a)bright.net> writes: > Larry, > > I think Busca's submerged part of the rudder is very close to 11" > longitudinally and 3' vertically. > > I wouldn't worry about losing 2" (I think that was the figure) > UNLESS you > have some spare change laying around that you are dying to spend or > UNLESS > you are the sort who loves performance. There is probably a slight > loss of > performance but probably a lot of sailors wouldn't notice it. > > The good thing is that the depth is the same. Loss of rudder area > while > maintaining depth has a smaller effect than if you had just trimmed > that > same amount of area off the bottom of the rudder. > > I had trimmed quite a bit off the bottom of Busca's original rudder, > maybe > 9" or so, and the effect there was very noticeable (25% loss of > area). > > Tod > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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FW: M_Boats: what you've written . . .
by Howard Audsley 25 Jan '05

25 Jan '05

Anybody have the Pardey books? I seem to recall that in the Cost Conscious Cruiser Larry made mention of a few tricks to tame weather helm. One was to balance the rudder by adding more area forward of the center of rotation and the other was to add weight to the rudder. The balance area I understand....the weight I didn't. Adjusting sail trim seems like a more obvious solution. Balancing the sail trim certainly makes the windvane operation better. My rudder is buoyant to the point were it will easily slide up and down the rudder pin. I see no need to add the complication of a block to gain leverage.....I would only use one to avoid chafe on the rudder so you didn't have to varnish/paint it from rope burn. What does make a difference is a straight rudder pin. Any bend at all in that pin and you have problems. I think the consequences of a grounding are a bent pin.....and later a damaged transom. I carry a spare pin and would recommend one for every boat. I'm sure Clarence would agree! Howard On 1/24/05 10:23 PM, "Craig F. Honshell" <chonshell(a)ia4u.net> wrote: > > . . . here makes sense to me, Tod, thanks! So basically, adding enough weight > to > help the kickup blade stay down shouldn't add a substantial amount of weight > to the > transom, therefore, board dimensions and profile are going to be more > important than > weight . . . --Craig > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: htmills(a)bright.net > To: 'Craig F. Honshell' ; 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 5:52 PM > Subject: and just when y'all were . . . > > Craig, > > I can't imagine why weight by itself would affect performance of the rudder. > That's more of a geometry problem. > > Now extra weight CAN (or WILL) affect the overall performance of the boat > simply because it means the boat displaces more so as it moves through the > water it will affect the water (resistance) more, and I think the general > wisdom is that it's better to keep weight out of the ends of the boat as > much as possible for pitching, although I don't have a good understanding of > why that would generally be true. > > Sorry I can't be more help. Maybe Jerry or someone else will offer more. > > Tod > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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