Here are readable sources concerning biography and work: Pierre Cartier 2001, "A mad day's work: from Grothendieck to ..." http://www.ams.org/journals/bull/2001-38-04/S0273-0979-01-00913-2/home.html
--is there anybody who claims to understand that? You know, R.P.Feynman once was unable to communicate his excellent ideas about path integrals and the foundations of QED, even though Schwinger apparently was able to communicate his (considerably harder to use) ideas... which RPF explained by remarking that "his machines came from too far away." Well, looks to me like Grothendieck's machines come from still further away. The Cartier piece does not mention a single application, and apparently neither do any of the sources in his bibliography. But there is a lot of handwaving about how maybe this is somehow floating around in a lot of places that might have something to do with applications someday. That are really really profound, so profound as to be unable to connect to anything concrete; that would merely diminish its profundity. In particular (just to issue a random provocation) Simon Plouffe, who started all this about Grothendieck and speaks his language, strikes me as a far more concrete guy and I'd guess that therefore he's unable to comprehend Grothendieck. And in my case, perhaps it is a defect of my mind, but in order to motivate me to put in the work to understand an area, I need to have some evidence it does something I'll find useful. Where is that evidence?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil_conjectures is something that Grothendieck contributed to, which seems amazing and whose statement can actually be comprehended. Does it have any applications, or does it just seem amazing? Well, I actually am aware of a few applications of the Weil conjectures, but I think most or all of those applications were later also accomplished in far simpler ways without needing to go anywhere near said conjectures.
This brings up the more general question of whether mathematics needs to have applications to be worthwhile. And, for that matter, what is an application? Do applications to other parts of mathematics count? Or must they be real-world applications? And finally, if some of us don't think any applications should be required of mathematics to be worthwhile or interesting, then how does one decide what is worthwhile, or what is interesting? On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Warren D Smith <warren.wds@gmail.com> wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil_conjectures
is something that Grothendieck contributed to, which seems amazing and whose statement can actually be comprehended. Does it have any applications, or does it just seem amazing? Well, I actually am aware of a few applications of the Weil conjectures, but I think most or all of those applications were later also accomplished in far simpler ways without needing to go anywhere near said conjectures.
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Whether or not mathematics, or particular branches thereof, are worthwhile is a personal decision. Seven billion people, seven billion opinions, likely most being that mathematics is totally worthless. -- Gene From: James Buddenhagen <jbuddenh@gmail.com> To: math-fun <math-fun@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [math-fun] Grothendieck This brings up the more general question of whether mathematics needs to have applications to be worthwhile. And, for that matter, what is an application? Do applications to other parts of mathematics count? Or must they be real-world applications? And finally, if some of us don't think any applications should be required of mathematics to be worthwhile or interesting, then how does one decide what is worthwhile, or what is interesting? On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Warren D Smith <warren.wds@gmail.com> wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil_conjectures
is something that Grothendieck contributed to, which seems amazing and whose statement can actually be comprehended. Does it have any applications, or does it just seem amazing? Well, I actually am aware of a few applications of the Weil conjectures, but I think most or all of those applications were later also accomplished in far simpler ways without needing to go anywhere near said conjectures.
re Applications of Grothendieck, some possible links. There's a not-yet-comprehended K-page proof of the ABC conjecture by Mochizuki. He might understand Grothendieck's work better than anyone else. Based only on superficial verbal similarity (I don't understand this stuff at all), M's Inter-Universal_Teichmuller_Theory appears to be descended from G. Mochizuki has announced a seminar for next Spring. Chen has a decent summary. Jeff Lagarias told me a long story about trying to find reviewers for the proof, and failing. http://projectwordsworth.com/the-paradox-of-the-proof/ Caroline Chen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abc_conjecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Mochizuki http://www.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~motizuki/top-english.html M's web page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-universal_Teichm%C3%BCller_theory One obvious approach is to try to force the proof through a computer proof checking program. This seems too hard. A recent success (August 2014) is Hales' computer check of the 1998 Ferguson-Hales proof of the Kepler Conjecture -- there's no denser way to pack spheres than the usual "one". https://code.google.com/p/flyspeck/wiki/AnnouncingCompletion The Flyspeck project team is a couple of dozen people, working for a few years. The final product includes a special version of the proof checker. One contrast with the ABC work is that the Kepler proof has no particular conceptual mountain to climb-- it's a boatload of linear & non-linear programming problems. The final computer check needs only 5K compute-hours. The real cost here is the effort of the project team. Rich ---------- Quoting Warren D Smith <warren.wds@gmail.com>:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil_conjectures
is something that Grothendieck contributed to, which seems amazing and whose statement can actually be comprehended. Does it have any applications, or does it just seem amazing? Well, I actually am aware of a few applications of the Weil conjectures, but I think most or all of those applications were later also accomplished in far simpler ways without needing to go anywhere near said conjectures.
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Hello, I met once Pierre Cartier in Montréal for a conference he gave. I also have known some mathematicians for years that were very fond of the Bourbaki style. Pierre Bouchard, André Joyal, Gilbert Labelle, Also, my own directors of masters thesis were experts in category theory, the theory of species. I had a friend also named Pierre Bouchard, a very strict Bourbaki mathematician. Myself about that style : I think I can say I am the complete opposite. I did not say anything yet because I wanted to see what is the rest of the world is thinking about 'Le Monde' saying that he was the greatest mathematician of the XX'th century. This is about abstraction and the means to get to an answer using logic, topos, category theory. For years there was those conferences in Montréal about The theory of species and combinatorics. I even participated to the making of the book on Species they made (Pierre Leroux, Labelle and Bergeron). Now, what do I think of Grothendieck : nothing. For me that type of mathematics is way too dry and formal. I was very curious to see what Pierre Cartier had to say when he came to Montréal for that conference. I am afraid that the abstraction is too high. The only explanation I could give about this to some friends recently is that : Suppose you want to justify the use of algebra for the solution of the n'th degree equation. I am talking here of the ordinary, one variable equation. As we know it, the use of algebra is justified, for degree 2, 3, 4 and 5. For the fifth degree, we need Galois theory to explain why some equations can or cannot be solved. Every mathematician will agree that this abstraction is necessary to get to the answer. The problem of Bourbaki mathematics is that they use algebra (of algebra (of algebra of some 'things' ))) to justify in 22 symbols what is the purpose of the empty set. This is authentic : the definition of the empty set in Bourbaki's theory of sets uses 22 symbols. This is insanely abstract for nothing in my opinion. I remember when I stumbled on that definition a long time ago. I was shocked (and amused). I also saw what type of justification was necessary to justify with the theory of species what are the Bernoulli Numbers in terms of combinatorics with that theory : Horribly complicated and useless. When I came in with the EIS project in 1990 with Neil Sloane, they laughed at me because I was using numerical recipes, numerical tricks to get the generating function of sequences. After a visit of Neil Sloane in Montreal, he convinced Pierre Leroux and Gilbert Labelle that this idea of numerics was good and they accepted that I do my master thesis on that subject. This was the complete opposite of the current projects they had with generating functions and the theory of Species. They had this huge program called Darwin programmed in Lisp, a white elephant, completely formal and dry, useless. It never worked actually. We call it 'une usine a gaz' a gaz factory in french. Grothendieck is the perfect example of Bourbaki style, formal, very abstract and dry. My friend Paul Simon (not the singer), an amateur mathematician asked me : what is or are the greatest mathematicians in the past century : In my opinion, John Conway, Martin Gardner, Ingrid Daubechies. Because there is a lot of imagination and richness in what they did and also because many of Conway's discoveries can be explained to a child. I made the test myself about the sequence 1, 11, 21, 1211, 1112211, many kids knows that sequence in schools in Canada and France. This is an amusing example of something not trivial, interesting, and that can be explained in a few words in plain language. I was giving the example of Grothendieck's work : I cannot find any example, profound phrase or only one simple idea that came out of all this. Maybe it is very profound but in my opinion : too formal. Best regards, Simon Plouffe
participants (5)
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Simon Plouffe -
Warren D Smith