[math-fun] Backwards W?
Typography is a bit removed from math, but I know some of you are font geeks, and in any case, the ability to attend to minutiae of notation is a part of the mathematician's toolkit. So without further apology, let me ask: Is the "W" in http://jamespropp.org/backwards-w.jpg truly backwards, as I think it is? Or does this sort of font-asymmetry admit variations? What's the relevant nomenclature describing the thickness of ascending and descending strokes? (If, ignoring my wife's counsel, I end up entering the Hollingworth 5 and 10 to tell them that their W is backwards, I want to sound like I know what I'm talking about, even if I actually don't.) Jim Propp
When my daughter was 4, she says "H's are never upside-down, except when they're sideways!" Perhaps she'll grow up to be a group theorist. Cris On Jul 1, 2015, at 8:24 AM, James Propp <jamespropp@gmail.com> wrote:
Typography is a bit removed from math, but I know some of you are font geeks, and in any case, the ability to attend to minutiae of notation is a part of the mathematician's toolkit.
So without further apology, let me ask: Is the "W" in http://jamespropp.org/backwards-w.jpg truly backwards, as I think it is? Or does this sort of font-asymmetry admit variations?
What's the relevant nomenclature describing the thickness of ascending and descending strokes? (If, ignoring my wife's counsel, I end up entering the Hollingworth 5 and 10 to tell them that their W is backwards, I want to sound like I know what I'm talking about, even if I actually don't.)
Jim Propp _______________________________________________ math-fun mailing list math-fun@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/math-fun
James Propp: "if... I end up entering the Hollingworth 5 and 10 to tell them that their W is backwards..." Cris Moore: "my daughter... says 'H's are never upside-down'..." I had a look at the Hollingworth sign in Google street view and, strangely enough, I think the initial (but not the final) H is upside down. :)
Based on a quick survey of 100 typefaces, it's wrong. The "W" is a combination of two "V"s, and the "V" always has the thicker stroke on the left; the "W" always follows the same convention. I offer a warning about complaint. Another math-funner once entered a shop to let them know that their sign had the word "apothecary" spelled wrong. He learned that the owner's name was "Carey" and the sign was a deliberate play on words. So maybe you will find that the owner of this shop is "Backwards Will". The two "H"s seems to have the crossbar at different heights. Hilarie
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 10:24:52 -0400 From: James Propp <jamespropp@gmail.com> Subject: [math-fun] Backwards W?
Typography is a bit removed from math, but I know some of you are font geeks, and in any case, the ability to attend to minutiae of notation is a part of the mathematician's toolkit.
So without further apology, let me ask: Is the "W" in http://jamespropp.org/backwards-w.jpg truly backwards, as I think it is? Or does this sort of font-asymmetry admit variations?
What's the relevant nomenclature describing the thickness of ascending and descending strokes? (If, ignoring my wife's counsel, I end up entering the Hollingworth 5 and 10 to tell them that their W is backwards, I want to sound like I know what I'm talking about, even if I actually don't.)
Jim Propp
On 2015-07-01 09:37, Hilarie Orman wrote:
Based on a quick survey of 100 typefaces, it's wrong. The "W" is a combination of two "V"s, and the "V" always has the thicker stroke on the left; the "W" always follows the same convention.
I offer a warning about complaint. Another math-funner once entered a shop to let them know that their sign had the word "apothecary" spelled wrong. He learned that the owner's name was "Carey" and the sign was a deliberate play on words. So maybe you will find that the owner of this shop is "Backwards Will".
Yeah, I almost complained about "mandarines" at a Mexican produce stand.
The two "H"s seems to have the crossbar at different heights.
Hilarie
Fantastic--Just what Wolfram needs for the "Dilbert Lambda" function! I teased him about the name ProductLog instead of LambertW, imagining that W was Lambert's original name, when actually it was named by the Maple guys in the 1990s. "I'll bet at Eton a bully named Lambert beat you up, and "ProductLog" was your revenge." And of course I repeated my pitch about how it should've been the inverse of x e^x^2, which he should call WolframW. The problem with that: TraditionalForm already renders ProductLog as W. So for the former, it can use backwards W! Or maybe Triple U. Oh well, W₂. Damn the IRS. --rwg
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 10:24:52 -0400 From: James Propp <jamespropp@gmail.com> Subject: [math-fun] Backwards W?
Typography is a bit removed from math, but I know some of you are font geeks, and in any case, the ability to attend to minutiae of notation is a part of the mathematician's toolkit.
So without further apology, let me ask: Is the "W" in http://jamespropp.org/backwards-w.jpg truly backwards, as I think it is? Or does this sort of font-asymmetry admit variations?
What's the relevant nomenclature describing the thickness of ascending and descending strokes? (If, ignoring my wife's counsel, I end up entering the Hollingworth 5 and 10 to tell them that their W is backwards, I want to sound like I know what I'm talking about, even if I actually don't.)
Jim Propp
_______________________________________________ math-fun mailing list math-fun@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/math-fun
It's Wrong with a capital W.
-----Original Message----- From: math-fun [mailto:math-fun-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of James Propp Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 10:25 AM To: math-fun Subject: [math-fun] Backwards W?
Typography is a bit removed from math, but I know some of you are font geeks, and in any case, the ability to attend to minutiae of notation is a part of the mathematician's toolkit.
So without further apology, let me ask: Is the "W" in http://jamespropp.org/backwards-w.jpg truly backwards, as I think it is? Or does this sort of font-asymmetry admit variations?
What's the relevant nomenclature describing the thickness of ascending and descending strokes? (If, ignoring my wife's counsel, I end up entering the Hollingworth 5 and 10 to tell them that their W is backwards, I want to sound like I know what I'm talking about, even if I actually don't.)
Jim Propp _______________________________________________ math-fun mailing list math-fun@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/math-fun
You're right, the W is backwards. This sort of thing happens a lot, and it drives typography-minded people like me crazy (but no one else). Here's why. Typefaces, or at least typefaces based on classical Roman letters, which your example W (font is Palatino) most definitely is, are based on handwritten calligraphic forms. Traditional broad-edged pen calligraphy, which was used to create the original capital letters in Roman times, and continues to be taught in calligraphy classes, uses a pen whose tip is not a point or a small rolling sphere, but instead a wide thin rectangle. A right-handed calligrapher normally nolds such a pen so the wide dimension of the pen tip is tilted up-hill to the right at an angle off horizontal of 30 to 45 degrees. See here for illustration: http://www.calligraphy-skills.com/how-to-write-calligraphy.html <http://www.calligraphy-skills.com/how-to-write-calligraphy.html> Drawing letters with such a pen means drawing strokes without turning the angle of the wide end, which naturally creates thick strokes when you stroke down to the right, as in the first and third strokes of a W, and thin strokes when you stroke down to the left, (or up to the right) as in the second and fourth strokes of a W. This is also the reason the right strokes of a capital A is thick, and that the letter O appears to be tilted to the left, with the thin spots at 11 and 5 o’clock. If you want to demonstrate this to someone else, it’s best to have some visual examples like the aforementioned web page, or better yet, a cheap calligraphic felt-tip pen and some paper. But don’t expect most people to be persuaded to mend the errors of their A’s (and W’s). Scott Kim, Puzzlemaster Shufflebrain C: 650-204-1577 http://scottkim.com scottekim@icloud.com
On Jul 1, 2015, at 7:24 AM, James Propp <jamespropp@gmail.com> wrote:
If they were using Copperplate font, they would have avoided all this mess.
-----Original Message----- From: math-fun [mailto:math-fun-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Scott Kim Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 11:20 AM To: math-fun Subject: Re: [math-fun] Backwards W?
You're right, the W is backwards. This sort of thing happens a lot, and it drives typography-minded people like me crazy (but no one else). Here's why.
Typefaces, or at least typefaces based on classical Roman letters, which your example W (font is Palatino) most definitely is, are based on handwritten calligraphic forms. Traditional broad-edged pen calligraphy, which was used to create the original capital letters in Roman times, and continues to be taught in calligraphy classes, uses a pen whose tip is not a point or a small rolling sphere, but instead a wide thin rectangle. A right-handed calligrapher normally nolds such a pen so the wide dimension of the pen tip is tilted up- hill to the right at an angle off horizontal of 30 to 45 degrees. See here for illustration: http://www.calligraphy-skills.com/how-to-write-calligraphy.html <http://www.calligraphy-skills.com/how-to-write-calligraphy.html>
Drawing letters with such a pen means drawing strokes without turning the angle of the wide end, which naturally creates thick strokes when you stroke down to the right, as in the first and third strokes of a W, and thin strokes when you stroke down to the left, (or up to the right) as in the second and fourth strokes of a W. This is also the reason the right strokes of a capital A is thick, and that the letter O appears to be tilted to the left, with the thin spots at 11 and 5 o’clock.
If you want to demonstrate this to someone else, it’s best to have some visual examples like the aforementioned web page, or better yet, a cheap calligraphic felt-tip pen and some paper. But don’t expect most people to be persuaded to mend the errors of their A’s (and W’s).
Scott Kim, Puzzlemaster Shufflebrain C: 650-204-1577 http://scottkim.com scottekim@icloud.com
On Jul 1, 2015, at 7:24 AM, James Propp <jamespropp@gmail.com> wrote:
_______________________________________________ math-fun mailing list math-fun@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/math-fun
Yes, typography does drive men mad, and it's not just computer scientists: http://www.economist.com/news/christmas-specials/21591793-legendary-typeface... It is interesting that millenia have passed since people began using pen and ink to embody language in print, but designers still adhere to the lines, angles, and curves that evoke that ancient technology. Would it be fun to change the rules and see what happens? Is there a better way to represent letters? Blobs and spikes and gradients? Holographic overlays of angles and lines? Something that renders a page nicely even when subjected to ebook presentation? The letters of words compressed into ideographs? On Beyond Zebra? Hilarie
From: Scott Kim <scottekim@icloud.com> Subject: Re: [math-fun] Backwards W?
You're right, the W is backwards. This sort of thing happens a lot, and it drives typography-minded people like me crazy (but no one else). Here's why.
Typefaces, or at least typefaces based on classical Roman letters, which your example W (font is Palatino) most definitely is, are based on handwritten calligraphic forms. Traditional broad-edged pen calligraphy, which was used to create the original capital letters in Roman times, and continues to be taught in calligraphy classes, uses a pen whose tip is not a point or a small rolling sphere, but instead a wide thin rectangle. A right-handed calligrapher normally nolds such a pen so the wide dimension of the pen tip is tilted up-hill to the right at an angle off horizontal of 30 to 45 degrees. See here for illustration: http://www.calligraphy-skills.com/how-to-write-calligraphy.html <http://www.calligraphy-skills.com/how-to-write-calligraphy.html>
Drawing letters with such a pen means drawing strokes without turning the angle of the wide end, which naturally creates thick strokes when you stroke down to the right, as in the first and third strokes of a W, and thin strokes when you stroke down to the left, (or up to the right) as in the second and fourth strokes of a W. This is also the reason the right strokes of a capital A is thick, and that the letter O appears to be tilted to the left, with the thin spots at 11 and 5 o'clock.
If you want to demonstrate this to someone else, it's best to have some visual examples like the aforementioned web page, or better yet, a cheap calligraphic felt-tip pen and some paper. But don't expect most people to be persuaded to mend the errors of their A's (and W's).
Scott Kim, Puzzlemaster Shufflebrain C: 650-204-1577 http://scottkim.com scottekim@icloud.com
On 2015-07-09 13:06, Hilarie Orman wrote:
Yes, typography does drive men mad, and it's not just computer scientists:
http://www.economist.com/news/christmas-specials/21591793-legendary-typeface... "Intrepid fans have occasionally tried to recover pieces of the type from the river, but no one has ever found any, so Mr Green had to beg and borrow Doves books as a reference." Update: http://thisisbravetalk.com/2015/03/10/under-the-bridge-the-long-lost-dove-ty... "Nearly a century later, some of the copper pieces have been recovered thanks to the effort and financial backing of Robert Green, a designer and Dove Type enthusiast. After studying the type for years, he wondered if any of it could be resurrected from the river. His dedication to the cause paid off in November of 2014 when some of the copper pieces were recovered." --rwg
It is interesting that millenia have passed since people began using pen and ink to embody language in print, but designers still adhere to the lines, angles, and curves that evoke that ancient technology.
Would it be fun to change the rules and see what happens? Is there a better way to represent letters? Blobs and spikes and gradients? Holographic overlays of angles and lines? Something that renders a page nicely even when subjected to ebook presentation? The letters of words compressed into ideographs? On Beyond Zebra?
Hilarie
From: Scott Kim <scottekim@icloud.com> Subject: Re: [math-fun] Backwards W?
You're right, the W is backwards. This sort of thing happens a lot, and it drives typography-minded people like me crazy (but no one else). Here's why.
Typefaces, or at least typefaces based on classical Roman letters, which your example W (font is Palatino) most definitely is, are based on handwritten calligraphic forms. Traditional broad-edged pen calligraphy, which was used to create the original capital letters in Roman times, and continues to be taught in calligraphy classes, uses a pen whose tip is not a point or a small rolling sphere, but instead a wide thin rectangle. A right-handed calligrapher normally nolds such a pen so the wide dimension of the pen tip is tilted up-hill to the right at an angle off horizontal of 30 to 45 degrees. See here for illustration: http://www.calligraphy-skills.com/how-to-write-calligraphy.html <http://www.calligraphy-skills.com/how-to-write-calligraphy.html>
Drawing letters with such a pen means drawing strokes without turning the angle of the wide end, which naturally creates thick strokes when you stroke down to the right, as in the first and third strokes of a W, and thin strokes when you stroke down to the left, (or up to the right) as in the second and fourth strokes of a W. This is also the reason the right strokes of a capital A is thick, and that the letter O appears to be tilted to the left, with the thin spots at 11 and 5 o'clock.
If you want to demonstrate this to someone else, it's best to have some visual examples like the aforementioned web page, or better yet, a cheap calligraphic felt-tip pen and some paper. But don't expect most people to be persuaded to mend the errors of their A's (and W's).
Scott Kim, Puzzlemaster Shufflebrain C: 650-204-1577 http://scottkim.com scottekim@icloud.com
_______________________________________________ math-fun mailing list math-fun@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/math-fun
participants (7)
-
Cris Moore -
David Wilson -
Hans Havermann -
Hilarie Orman -
James Propp -
rwg -
Scott Kim