Re: [math-fun] Integers of the form K*K +K*L + L*L
Dan Asimov <dasimov@earthlink.net> wrote:
I made a table of the Loeschian numbers Lo(K,L) for K >= L. and then tried to *connect each one with the next largest one* with a line segment on paper.
But it was hard to see any pattern in how they connect (below). So the question boils down to:
Is there a concise formula for the "next largest number" in a set like Lo = {Lo(K,L) | K, L in Z} ??? I.e., f(0) = 1, f(1) = 3, f(3) = 4, ....
I wouldn't think so. There are lots of examples of two-dimensional integer sequences, aka tables, where there's a simple pattern to every row and to every column, but no pattern to all the numbers sorted in order. Examples include: * The multiplication table (excluding the 1s row and column). The entries are the composite numbers (A002808), which are of course exactly as patternless as the primes. * Power numbers (A001597), i.e. the union of the squares, cubes, etc. Only in 2002 was it even proven that 8 and 9 are the only adjacent members of the set. * Numbers in Pascal's triangle (other than the first two rows and columns), aka the binomial coefficients (A006987). * Nontrivial polygonal or figurate numbers, i.e. the union of the triangular numbers (other than 1 and 3), the squares (other than 1 and 4), the pentagonal numbers (other than 1 and 5), etc. (A090466). * Numbers that are a power of 2 plus a power of 3 (A004050). Similarly with any other two primes. * Numbers that are a power of 2 times a power of 3 (A003586). Similarly with any other two primes. Can anyone think of a nontrivial example of such a table sequence that *does* have a simple formula for finding the next one? I can't. (By "trivial," I think I just mean tables that contain all numbers or that contain only a small number of distinct numbers.)
You might find J H Conway's book The Sensual (quadratic) Form <https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~v1ranick/papers/conwaysens.pdf> of some interest for this problem. In the introduction, Conway says
I have been interested in quadratic forms for many years, but keep on discovering new and simple ways to understand them. The "topograph " of the First Lecture makes the entire theory of binary quadratic forms so easy that we no longer need to think or prove theorems about these forms-just look! I
On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 7:05 PM Keith F. Lynch <kfl@keithlynch.net> wrote:
Dan Asimov <dasimov@earthlink.net> wrote:
I made a table of the Loeschian numbers Lo(K,L) for K >= L. and then tried to *connect each one with the next largest one* with a line segment on paper.
But it was hard to see any pattern in how they connect (below). So the question boils down to:
Is there a concise formula for the "next largest number" in a set like Lo = {Lo(K,L) | K, L in Z} ??? I.e., f(0) = 1, f(1) = 3, f(3) = 4, ....
I wouldn't think so. There are lots of examples of two-dimensional integer sequences, aka tables, where there's a simple pattern to every row and to every column, but no pattern to all the numbers sorted in order.
Examples include:
* The multiplication table (excluding the 1s row and column). The entries are the composite numbers (A002808), which are of course exactly as patternless as the primes.
* Power numbers (A001597), i.e. the union of the squares, cubes, etc. Only in 2002 was it even proven that 8 and 9 are the only adjacent members of the set.
* Numbers in Pascal's triangle (other than the first two rows and columns), aka the binomial coefficients (A006987).
* Nontrivial polygonal or figurate numbers, i.e. the union of the triangular numbers (other than 1 and 3), the squares (other than 1 and 4), the pentagonal numbers (other than 1 and 5), etc. (A090466).
* Numbers that are a power of 2 plus a power of 3 (A004050). Similarly with any other two primes.
* Numbers that are a power of 2 times a power of 3 (A003586). Similarly with any other two primes.
Can anyone think of a nontrivial example of such a table sequence that *does* have a simple formula for finding the next one? I can't. (By "trivial," I think I just mean tables that contain all numbers or that contain only a small number of distinct numbers.)
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Keith's final example, the numbers 2^X * 3^Y, is relatively easy to generate
in sorted order, using a finite amount of (arbitrarily large) numbers.
Looking at the sequence, and the ratios:
1,2,3,4,6,8,9,12,16,18,24,27,32,36,48,54,64,...
2, 3/2, 4/3, 3/2, 4/3, 9/8, 4/3, 4/3, 9/8, 4/3, 9/8, 32/27, 9/8, 4/3,
9/8, 32/27, ...
At any given term of the sequence, there are only a few possible ratios
for computing the next term. After 6, the ratios 2 and 3/2 are retired.
It looks like the number of active or potentially active ratios is some
small number like 4 or 6, and the new-hire and retirement rules should be
easy to figure out. This isn't exactly a trivial sequence, but given
the bounded number of memory-numbers required, and the brevity of the
implied Next-Term program, it would be fair to call it near-trivial.
The 2,3 ratio series also has a kind of "self-similarity": If you imagine
a read-head moving over the series, writing new ratios some distance ahead,
a ratio is either copied forward from the read-head, or split into two new
terms, whose product is the read-head term.
The situation for three primes looks interesting. Is the set-size of
required ratios bounded? Can they perhaps be computed "on-the-fly"
for each term, with a bounded number of arithmetic operations?
In the 2,3 case, imagine the first quadrant of the lattice of (X,Y)
integer points, and a broom of slope -log3/log2 that starts sweeping
at (0,0). We want to work out the order of the lattice points being
swept up; and when we need to widen our broom.
The 3D problem with 2,3,5 looks harder. Our broom morphs from a
line segment into a triangle, whose edges are determined by the ratios
of the two-prime series.
If we're willing to keep a record of the series in memory, maybe we could
have two read heads located further back, say at terms T/2 and T/3, that
offer candidates for the next term after T? Then the series is the union
of the double of the T/2 read-head, and the triple of the T/3 read-head.
Does this work for 2,3,5?
Rich
-----
Quoting "Keith F. Lynch" <kfl@KeithLynch.net>:
> Dan Asimov <dasimov@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> I made a table of the Loeschian numbers Lo(K,L) for K >= L.
>> and then tried to *connect each one with the next largest one*
>> with a line segment on paper.
>> But it was hard to see any pattern in how they connect (below).
>> So the question boils down to:
>> Is there a concise formula for the "next largest number" in a set
>> like Lo = {Lo(K,L) | K, L in Z} ??? I.e., f(0) = 1, f(1) = 3, f(3)
>> = 4, ....
> I wouldn't think so. There are lots of examples of two-dimensional
> integer sequences, aka tables, where there's a simple pattern to
> every row and to every column, but no pattern to all the numbers
> sorted in order.
> Examples include:
> * The multiplication table (excluding the 1s row and column).
> The entries are the composite numbers (A002808), which are of
> course exactly as patternless as the primes.
> * Power numbers (A001597), i.e. the union of the squares, cubes, etc.
> Only in 2002 was it even proven that 8 and 9 are the only adjacent
> members of the set.
> * Numbers in Pascal's triangle (other than the first two rows and
> columns), aka the binomial coefficients (A006987).
> * Nontrivial polygonal or figurate numbers, i.e. the union of the
> triangular numbers (other than 1 and 3), the squares (other than 1
> and 4), the pentagonal numbers (other than 1 and 5), etc. (A090466).
> * Numbers that are a power of 2 plus a power of 3 (A004050).
> Similarly with any other two primes.
> * Numbers that are a power of 2 times a power of 3 (A003586).
> Similarly with any other two primes.
> Can anyone think of a nontrivial example of such a table sequence that
> *does* have a simple formula for finding the next one? I can't. (By
> "trivial," I think I just mean tables that contain all numbers or that
> contain only a small number of distinct numbers.)
On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 5:44 PM <rcs@xmission.com> wrote:
Keith's final example, the numbers 2^X * 3^Y, is relatively easy to generate in sorted order... It looks like the number of active or potentially active ratios is some small number like 4 or 6, and the new-hire and retirement rules should be easy to figure out.
This is a nice idea for analysis, but some of your assertions seem doubtable. Rather than iterating a fractional sequence r_n, we can go through a triple of integers v_n={i,j,k} such that i=0 implies r_n = 2^j/3^k and i=1 implies r_n = 3^j/2^k. At a glance, the iterator v_n -> v_{n+1} does not seem "easy to figure out". Setting aside the boolean sequence for i (?), exponents j & k potentially increase unbounded. These exponent sequences may draw from a finite set locally, but what is that set? Up to 10K I calculated that Numerators: {1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 12, 27, 46, 53, 65, 149} Denominators: {1, 3, 5, 11, 17, 19, 29, 41, 84, 94} and observed that j(n) and k(n) appear to grow very roughly like log(n) as the sequence of r_n approaches 1 asymptotically. After only this, I can not leave off optimistic on the question of finding a term-to-term iterator for the suggested fractional sequence. Maybe it is possible to make better progress starting with the parity sequence: 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 1, 0 . . . -- Brad
participants (4)
-
Brad Klee -
Keith F. Lynch -
rcs@xmission.com -
W. Edwin Clark