Re: Solution Re: [math-fun] 1,2,3,5,18 puzzle
Heh! Actually, I've found a marvelous cycle of length 442783582734897230450239994058234089230450023451234951 but the margin is too small to contain the start value! More seriously, it's always seemed to me that Collatz might be a member of some parametric family--including others like 3n-1, 3n+5, 17n+7, 105n+69...say. Then a "real" answer would be a theory that predicts the cycle structure given the parameters--as opposed to just this one instance. Or, perhaps at least a negative result such as that it's incomputably chaotic...
On 9/13/06, Marc LeBrun <mlb@well.com> wrote:
Heh! Actually, I've found a marvelous cycle of length 442783582734897230450239994058234089230450023451234951 but the margin is too small to contain the start value!
More seriously, it's always seemed to me that Collatz might be a member of some parametric family--including others like 3n-1, 3n+5, 17n+7, 105n+69...say. Then a "real" answer would be a theory that predicts the cycle structure given the parameters--as opposed to just this one instance. Or, perhaps at least a negative result such as that it's incomputably chaotic...
Conway proved it's undecidable. Any FRACTRAN program can be converted to a Collatz-like form, thus the general problem of predicting cycles is as hard as the Halting problem. Of course, that doesn't say anything about the original Collatz problem, and I'd be very surprised if it's universal for computation (only one known non-halting program!)
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Conway proved it's undecidable. Any FRACTRAN program can be converted to a Collatz-like form, thus the general problem of predicting cycles is as hard as the Halting problem.
Good point. I agree it applies here, but ONLY "for some value of general"! So, eschewing despondency, I'm not yet willing to curl up on the proposition.
Of course, that doesn't say anything about the original Collatz problem, and I'd be very surprised if it's universal for computation (only one known non-halting program!)
True! And, moreover, this DOESN'T say that some suitably chosen SUBSETS of "Collatz-like" forms (eg those in some as-yet-unspecified parametric family) MUST contain undecidable instances. That is, it's not an all-or-nothing situation. We're not forced to deal with JUST the "classic" Collatz instance simply because the MOST general case has been proven undecidable (as neat and useful as that result is). For example the FRACTRAN programs with Collatz images where the multipliers, are, say, prime (to pick an arbitrary property) MIGHT in fact be a decidable subset. We can ONLY conclude that we should study JUST the 3N+1 instance IF we can establish that ALL more general properties P satisfied by 3N+1 do in fact necessarily lead to classes with undecidable members. This seems MUCH harder and less plausible than the original problem--thus at least engendering the faint hope that embedding Collatz in SOME more general setting might enable some progress. That, of course, is analogous to what happened with FLT.
On 9/14/06, Mike Stay <mike@math.ucr.edu> wrote:
On 9/13/06, Marc LeBrun <mlb@well.com> wrote:
More seriously, it's always seemed to me that Collatz might be a member of some parametric family--including others like 3n-1, 3n+5, 17n+7, 105n+69...say. Then a "real" answer would be a theory that predicts the cycle structure given the parameters--as opposed to just this one instance. Or, perhaps at least a negative result such as that it's incomputably chaotic...
Conway proved it's undecidable. Any FRACTRAN program can be converted to a Collatz-like form, thus the general problem of predicting cycles is as hard as the Halting problem.
Of course, that doesn't say anything about the original Collatz problem, and I'd be very surprised if it's universal for computation (only one known non-halting program!)
A few years ago a local schoolteacher called Neil Hamilton observed that the original Collatz problem, for the function f(x) = 3x+1 if x is odd, x/2 if x is even is equivalent to the analogous problem for the new function g(y) = (y+1)/4 if y mod 4 = 3, (3y+1)/4 if y mod 4 = 1, 3y/2 if y mod 4 = 0,2. While I said at the time that I thought this was probably well-known, I didn't find any mention of it in the literature; and it did occur to me to wonder whether there had been any systematic attempt to investigate such equivalences. WFL
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Fred lunnon -
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Mike Stay