[math-fun] Polynesian (Pacific Ocean) navigation pre-clocks, pre-GPS
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS. Supposedly, the Polynesian navigators use information about waves/swells/etc. to detect the presence & direction of islands over the horizon. I'm a bit skeptical about this, because unless these skills are relatively easily acquired, anyone with less than a certain critical mass of skills will die, and even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation. (This is semi-analogous to the spread of a communicable disease, only in this case we _want_ the navigational information/techniques to propagate.) On the other hand, if this information is available in the wave/swell patterns, then presumably an "AI" computer program could learn these techniques by sending out lots of little buoys with GPS, sky-facing camera (for sun & star info) & wave-sensing capabilities, and eventually learn how to correlate these wave/swell patterns with positions relative to known islands. http://web.archive.org/web/20090917235953/http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/navigate...
<< even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation >> An elegant argument which embarrassingly fails to conform to observation. For instance, how did migratory birds manage to acquire the same capability? WFL On 3/25/15, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS.
Supposedly, the Polynesian navigators use information about waves/swells/etc. to detect the presence & direction of islands over the horizon.
I'm a bit skeptical about this, because unless these skills are relatively easily acquired, anyone with less than a certain critical mass of skills will die, and even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation. (This is semi-analogous to the spread of a communicable disease, only in this case we _want_ the navigational information/techniques to propagate.)
On the other hand, if this information is available in the wave/swell patterns, then presumably an "AI" computer program could learn these techniques by sending out lots of little buoys with GPS, sky-facing camera (for sun & star info) & wave-sensing capabilities, and eventually learn how to correlate these wave/swell patterns with positions relative to known islands.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090917235953/http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/navigate...
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By flying with their parents ? R. On Wed, 25 Mar 2015, Fred Lunnon wrote:
<< even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation >>
An elegant argument which embarrassingly fails to conform to observation. For instance, how did migratory birds manage to acquire the same capability?
WFL
On 3/25/15, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS.
Supposedly, the Polynesian navigators use information about waves/swells/etc. to detect the presence & direction of islands over the horizon.
I'm a bit skeptical about this, because unless these skills are relatively easily acquired, anyone with less than a certain critical mass of skills will die, and even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation. (This is semi-analogous to the spread of a communicable disease, only in this case we _want_ the navigational information/techniques to propagate.)
On the other hand, if this information is available in the wave/swell patterns, then presumably an "AI" computer program could learn these techniques by sending out lots of little buoys with GPS, sky-facing camera (for sun & star info) & wave-sensing capabilities, and eventually learn how to correlate these wave/swell patterns with positions relative to known islands.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090917235953/http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/navigate...
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Chicken and egg ?! WFL On 3/25/15, rkg <rkg@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
By flying with their parents ? R.
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015, Fred Lunnon wrote:
<< even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation >>
An elegant argument which embarrassingly fails to conform to observation. For instance, how did migratory birds manage to acquire the same capability?
WFL
On 3/25/15, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS.
Supposedly, the Polynesian navigators use information about waves/swells/etc. to detect the presence & direction of islands over the horizon.
I'm a bit skeptical about this, because unless these skills are relatively easily acquired, anyone with less than a certain critical mass of skills will die, and even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation. (This is semi-analogous to the spread of a communicable disease, only in this case we _want_ the navigational information/techniques to propagate.)
On the other hand, if this information is available in the wave/swell patterns, then presumably an "AI" computer program could learn these techniques by sending out lots of little buoys with GPS, sky-facing camera (for sun & star info) & wave-sensing capabilities, and eventually learn how to correlate these wave/swell patterns with positions relative to known islands.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090917235953/http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/navigate...
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On 2015-03-25 09:52, rkg wrote:
By flying with their parents ? R.
OK, modify the question by replacing "migratory birds" with "salmon" or "Monarch butterflies".
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015, Fred Lunnon wrote:
<< even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation >>
An elegant argument which embarrassingly fails to conform to observation. For instance, how did migratory birds manage to acquire the same capability?
WFL
On 3/25/15, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS.
Supposedly, the Polynesian navigators use information about waves/swells/etc. to detect the presence & direction of islands over the horizon.
I'm a bit skeptical about this, because unless these skills are relatively easily acquired, anyone with less than a certain critical mass of skills will die, and even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation. (This is semi-analogous to the spread of a communicable disease, only in this case we _want_ the navigational information/techniques to propagate.)
On the other hand, if this information is available in the wave/swell patterns, then presumably an "AI" computer program could learn these techniques by sending out lots of little buoys with GPS, sky-facing camera (for sun & star info) & wave-sensing capabilities, and eventually learn how to correlate these wave/swell patterns with positions relative to known islands.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090917235953/http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/navigate...
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It's interesting that some butterflies migrate many thousands of miles and back, taking something like 5 generations to complete. I find that feat of navigation even more astonishing. I was going to mention < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_butterfly_migration#Range_of_the_migrat... >, but decided that this is more authoratative and detailed: < http://www.monarchbutterflyfund.org/node/148 >. --Dan
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:44 AM, Fred Lunnon <fred.lunnon@gmail.com> wrote: . . . . . . how did migratory birds manage to acquire the same capability?
On 3/25/15, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS. . . . . . .
Hmmmm... Insects & birds (aka dinosaurs) & fish (salmon, etc.) have these incredible ocean navigational capabilities. Weren't there periods in the Earth's history where the ice caps were all melted, and the oceans were higher (=> less dry land) than today ? Such navigational abilities might have been ubiquitous, because most species would have needed them to survive. Only dry-land non-flying animals wouldn't need these abilities, so they might have been lost. If some of these abilities can be correlated with certain stretches of DNA, perhaps some non-functioning stretches of such DNA might still exist in mammals (including humans) ? At 09:37 AM 3/26/2015, Dan Asimov wrote:
It's interesting that some butterflies migrate many thousands of miles and back, taking something like 5 generations to complete. I find that feat of navigation even more astonishing.
I was going to mention < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_butterfly_migration#Range_of_the_migrat... >, but decided that this is more authoratative and detailed: < http://www.monarchbutterflyfund.org/node/148 >.
--Dan
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:44 AM, Fred Lunnon <fred.lunnon@gmail.com> wrote: . . . . . . how did migratory birds manage to acquire the same capability?
On 3/25/15, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS. . . . . . .
This thread has been fascinating. There was this discovery last year that Burmese pythons have some sort of "internal GPS" that allows them to travel in straight line over a distance exceeding 20 miles in the marshes of Florida. As is the case in most of these things, scientists don't understand how they do this. Here is one news article on this: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/mar/20/florida-scientists-deadly... Thank you Landon Noll for sharing your wonderful encounter. naeem On Thu, 26 Mar 2015, Henry Baker wrote:
Hmmmm... Insects & birds (aka dinosaurs) & fish (salmon, etc.) have these incredible ocean navigational capabilities.
Weren't there periods in the Earth's history where the ice caps were all melted, and the oceans were higher (=> less dry land) than today ?
Such navigational abilities might have been ubiquitous, because most species would have needed them to survive.
Only dry-land non-flying animals wouldn't need these abilities, so they might have been lost.
If some of these abilities can be correlated with certain stretches of DNA, perhaps some non-functioning stretches of such DNA might still exist in mammals (including humans) ?
At 09:37 AM 3/26/2015, Dan Asimov wrote:
It's interesting that some butterflies migrate many thousands of miles and back, taking something like 5 generations to complete. I find that feat of navigation even more astonishing.
I was going to mention < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_butterfly_migration#Range_of_the_migrat... >, but decided that this is more authoratative and detailed: < http://www.monarchbutterflyfund.org/node/148 >.
--Dan
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:44 AM, Fred Lunnon <fred.lunnon@gmail.com> wrote: . . . . . . how did migratory birds manage to acquire the same capability?
On 3/25/15, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS. . . . . . .
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There is a fascinating book on navigation that discusses in detail the methods used by Polynesians. The book is "The Lost Art of Finding Our Way" by John Edward Huth. One technique is to separate the 2-d navigation problem into two 1-d problems: first, navigate up or down to the proper latitude (relatiely easy), then go east or west. Bob --- Naeem Sheikh wrote:
This thread has been fascinating. There was this discovery last year that Burmese pythons have some sort of "internal GPS" that allows them to travel in straight line over a distance exceeding 20 miles in the marshes of Florida. As is the case in most of these things, scientists don't understand how they do this.
Here is one news article on this:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/mar/20/florida-scientists-deadly...
Thank you Landon Noll for sharing your wonderful encounter.
naeem
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015, Henry Baker wrote:
Hmmmm... Insects & birds (aka dinosaurs) & fish (salmon, etc.) have these incredible ocean navigational capabilities.
Weren't there periods in the Earth's history where the ice caps were all melted, and the oceans were higher (=> less dry land) than today ?
Such navigational abilities might have been ubiquitous, because most species would have needed them to survive.
Only dry-land non-flying animals wouldn't need these abilities, so they might have been lost.
If some of these abilities can be correlated with certain stretches of DNA, perhaps some non-functioning stretches of such DNA might still exist in mammals (including humans) ?
At 09:37 AM 3/26/2015, Dan Asimov wrote:
It's interesting that some butterflies migrate many thousands of miles and back, taking something like 5 generations to complete. I find that feat of navigation even more astonishing.
I was going to mention < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_butterfly_migration#Range_of_the_migrat...
, but decided that this is more authoratative and detailed: < http://www.monarchbutterflyfund.org/node/148 >.
--Dan
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:44 AM, Fred Lunnon <fred.lunnon@gmail.com> wrote: . . . . . . how did migratory birds manage to acquire the same capability?
On 3/25/15, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS. . . . . . .
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On 3/25/2015 9:03 AM, Henry Baker wrote:
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS.
Supposedly, the Polynesian navigators use information about waves/swells/etc. to detect the presence & direction of islands over the horizon.
I'm a bit skeptical about this, because unless these skills are relatively easily acquired, anyone with less than a certain critical mass of skills will die, and even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation. (This is semi-analogous to the spread of a communicable disease, only in this case we _want_ the navigational information/techniques to propagate.)
On the other hand, if this information is available in the wave/swell patterns, then presumably an "AI" computer program could learn these techniques by sending out lots of little buoys with GPS, sky-facing camera (for sun & star info) & wave-sensing capabilities, and eventually learn how to correlate these wave/swell patterns with positions relative to known islands.
And that would be better than GPS...how? :-) Brent
http://web.archive.org/web/20090917235953/http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/navigate...
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And that would be better than GPS...how? :-)
It would still work after the apocalypse takes out the GPS system. The same methods could be adapted to navigate where GPS can't, for example under water, under ice.
From: Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com>
I heard a recent program on the ability of ancient Polynesians to navigate the Pacific Ocean w/o clocks/longitude or GPS.
Supposedly, the Polynesian navigators use information about waves/swells/etc. to detect the presence & direction of islands over the horizon.
I'm a bit skeptical about this, because unless these skills are relatively easily acquired, anyone with less than a certain critical mass of skills will die, and even partial skills won't be transferred to the next generation. (This is semi-analogous to the spread of a communicable disease, only in this case we _want_ the navigational information/techniques to propagate.)
Polynesians were not unique in having oral traditions that codified their knowledge. They also made maps from sticks, string, and shells. However, some say the biggest clue to the existence of the Hawaiian Islands was probably the pattern of migrating birds. This is as obvious as "Monroe" in the president's problem. Hilarie
The question I was trying to answer was how the Polynesians navigated _routinely_, which is a very different question from how they discovered some islands in the first place. Interestingly, one of the supposed techniques was to take along some particular kinds of birds. If they wanted to know if there was land nearby, they would release a bird. If it came back (relatively quickly), there wasn't land nearby. I seem to recall that Noah used some sort of bird trick after the Flood to find land. Obviously, one would have to have a pretty decent supply of such birds on hand when embarking on a long journey to a relatively unknown stretch of the ocean. The Polynesians therefore reduced the navigation problem to one already solved (by the birds). At 02:30 PM 3/25/2015, Hilarie Orman wrote:
Polynesians were not unique in having oral traditions that codified their knowledge. They also made maps from sticks, string, and shells.
However, some say the biggest clue to the existence of the Hawaiian Islands was probably the pattern of migrating birds.
Slime molds solved it first. Flocks of birds are just slime molds with wings and a better press agent. :-) Jim Propp On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
The question I was trying to answer was how the Polynesians navigated _routinely_, which is a very different question from how they discovered some islands in the first place.
Interestingly, one of the supposed techniques was to take along some particular kinds of birds. If they wanted to know if there was land nearby, they would release a bird. If it came back (relatively quickly), there wasn't land nearby. I seem to recall that Noah used some sort of bird trick after the Flood to find land.
Obviously, one would have to have a pretty decent supply of such birds on hand when embarking on a long journey to a relatively unknown stretch of the ocean.
The Polynesians therefore reduced the navigation problem to one already solved (by the birds).
At 02:30 PM 3/25/2015, Hilarie Orman wrote:
Polynesians were not unique in having oral traditions that codified their knowledge. They also made maps from sticks, string, and shells.
However, some say the biggest clue to the existence of the Hawaiian Islands was probably the pattern of migrating birds.
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I recall being told that the Polynesians were quite good astronomers - one can at least get latitude that way (the story of how shipboard clocks were developed in order to measure longitude is a fascinating story). Cris On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Henry Baker <hbaker1@pipeline.com> wrote:
The question I was trying to answer was how the Polynesians navigated _routinely_, which is a very different question from how they discovered some islands in the first place.
Interestingly, one of the supposed techniques was to take along some particular kinds of birds. If they wanted to know if there was land nearby, they would release a bird. If it came back (relatively quickly), there wasn't land nearby. I seem to recall that Noah used some sort of bird trick after the Flood to find land.
Obviously, one would have to have a pretty decent supply of such birds on hand when embarking on a long journey to a relatively unknown stretch of the ocean.
The Polynesians therefore reduced the navigation problem to one already solved (by the birds).
At 02:30 PM 3/25/2015, Hilarie Orman wrote:
Polynesians were not unique in having oral traditions that codified their knowledge. They also made maps from sticks, string, and shells.
However, some say the biggest clue to the existence of the Hawaiian Islands was probably the pattern of migrating birds.
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participants (12)
-
Cris Moore -
Dan Asimov -
Dave Dyer -
Fred Lunnon -
Henry Baker -
Hilarie Orman -
James Propp -
meekerdb -
Michael Greenwald -
Naeem Sheikh -
rkg -
Robert Baillie