The proposed Reagan dime should have negative value (-$.10), just like his presidency. But this would cause massive confusion. If you give someone an RD, you might immediately owe them $.10. Therefore you have to keep your RD's carefully guarded, to avoid theft, which would cause you debt. But you want to get rid of all your RD's because they represent a debt. If you owe the IRS back taxes, they could send you a pile of RD's, but you could throw them away and deny getting them. What are the implications of having negative coins? I'm confused.
The "negative" value of the coin is an obligation on the issuer. For example, phone cards are effectively "negative value" issued by the phone company. If you accept them, the phone company owes you money (or equivalent service). The trick is to get someone to accept your "obs" in the first place.
The difference is that the phone company's cards are labeled so the credit you have is specific and traceable. A Reagan dime is unlabeled and represents no obligation from anyone. That's what makes it confusing, at least to me. During the Cold War, I had an idea to destabilize Cuba. Just gather up several million old beat-up cars, ones which barely work, put one or two gallons of fuel in each one, and dump them on their beaches in the middle of the night. (I'm ignoring practicalities.) The cars would seem valuable to individual Cubans but in reality they would be a huge destabilizing force, causing fights, gas shortages, traffic jams, accidents, chaos, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dyer" <ddyer@real-me.net> To: "math-fun" <math-fun@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [math-fun] Negative money
The "negative" value of the coin is an obligation on the issuer. For example, phone cards are effectively "negative value" issued by the phone company. If you accept them, the phone company owes you money (or equivalent service). The trick is to get someone to accept your "obs" in the first place.
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Steve, you invented the 'weapons of mass transportation' before the day! Old Europe wishes you a nice 2004, ;-)) Wouter. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Gray" <stevebg@adelphia.net> To: "math-fun" <math-fun@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [math-fun] Negative money
The difference is that the phone company's cards are labeled so the credit you have is specific and traceable. A Reagan dime is unlabeled and represents no obligation from anyone. That's what makes it confusing, at least to me. During the Cold War, I had an idea to destabilize Cuba. Just gather up several million old beat-up cars, ones which barely work, put one or two gallons of fuel in each one, and dump them on their beaches in the middle of the night. (I'm ignoring practicalities.) The cars would seem valuable to individual Cubans but in reality they would be a huge destabilizing force, causing fights, gas shortages, traffic jams, accidents, chaos, etc.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dyer" <ddyer@real-me.net> To: "math-fun" <math-fun@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [math-fun] Negative money
The "negative" value of the coin is an obligation on the issuer. For example, phone cards are effectively "negative value" issued by the phone company. If you accept them, the phone company owes you money (or equivalent service). The trick is to get someone to accept your "obs" in the first place.
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I've not been reading this string, but will comment, in case RKG and ELB haven't, that negative money has already appeared in some great mathematical literature. You will learn from "Winning Ways" how they had to take away the Emperor Teh-ka-Weh for issuing currency of negative value. JHC
Negative prices/tolls in (min,+) matrix multiplication (used for shortest path/toll calculations) produce -oo results when there is a directed loop with negative sum. There are cases in accounting where a debt is really an asset -- e.g., if the debt is long-term debt at less than market interest rates. At 05:29 PM 12/26/2003, Steve Gray wrote:
The proposed Reagan dime should have negative value (-$.10), just like his presidency. But this would cause massive confusion. If you give someone an RD, you might immediately owe them $.10. Therefore you have to keep your RD's carefully guarded, to avoid theft, which would cause you debt. But you want to get rid of all your RD's because they represent a debt. If you owe the IRS back taxes, they could send you a pile of RD's, but you could throw them away and deny getting them. What are the implications of having negative coins? I'm confused.
A nontrivial example of a commodity with negative value is hazardous waste. One cannot (legally) just throw it away. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
Maybe the Reagan dime should be radioactive and illegal to discard. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene Salamin" <gene_salamin@yahoo.com> To: "math-fun" <math-fun@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [math-fun] Negative money
A nontrivial example of a commodity with negative value is hazardous waste. One cannot (legally) just throw it away.
participants (6)
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Dave Dyer -
Eugene Salamin -
Henry Baker -
John Conway -
Steve Gray -
wouter meeussen