[math-fun] 1,409, 481, 24961, 28721, ...?
*Very* probably spotty list: 1,409, 481, 24961, 28721, 65441, 113241, 121609, 345761, 362401, 384161, 530881, 620321, 854401, 882889, 909321, 1163249,... the squarefree part of integers of the form √(a⁴+b⁴+c⁴). Like the congruent numbers, you can't rule them out with finite searching. 1 doesn't show up until a=414560, b=217519, c=95800 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_sum_of_powers_conjecture). Are there really none with four digits? Two? —rwg
Bill Gosper <billgosper@gmail.com> writes:
_Very_ probably spotty list:
Yes, see below.
the squarefree part of integers of the form sqrt(a^4+b^4+c^4).
Nice question!
Like the congruent numbers, you can't rule them out with finite searching.
Unlike congruent numbers, if there's no solution then we don't know in general how to prove it.
1 doesn't show up until a=414560, b=217519, c=95800 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_sum_of_powers_conjecture).
Unless you allow 0,0,1 . . .
Are there really none with four digits? Two?
5441 arises for {a,b,c} = {1960, 2183, 2360} (with square factor 39^2). An overnight search roughly tripled the number of examples up to 10^6; the new ones start 201, 889, 5441, 5601, 6969, 7761, 8049. No two-digit solutions turned up, but it may be reasonable to guess that every squarefree 8k+1 arises eventually, though it may take a long time. Indeed I might venture to call this guess a conjecture once it's known that there's no "Brauer-Manin obstructuion". Trying all a,b,c up to N takes time about N^3; that's basically what I did, though with some tricks to avoid having to test directly whether each candidate a^4+b^4+c^4 is a square. To go much beyond that, one would probably want an algorithm that takes much less than N^3 time; one approach is to factor all the candidates a^4+b^4, and then check, for each solution of a^4+b^4 = x^2-y^2 in the desired range, whether y is a square. You can assume that a and b are multiples of 5, with a <= b and a,b not both odd. Factoring should take subexponential time but is still expensive to do N^2 times. If you want to search for solutions of a^4+b^4+c^4 = r^2*d^4 for one or a few target r such as 17 or 33, you can do it in about N^2 time (not N^2 factorizations) and N space using the technique described in Dan Bernstein's "sorted sums" page <http://cr.yp.to/sortedsums.html>. The number of primitive solutions of a^4+b^4+c^4 = x^2 with a,b,c < N should grow more-or-less linearly in N, but I don't think I know a way to find all or even a substantial fraction of them in time significantly less than N^2. Happy New Year's Eve Eve Eve Eve Eve Eve Eve Eve (see today's XKCD <xkcd.com/2089>), --Noam D. Elkies 1: [0, 0, 1] 1 201: [80, 1192, 1535] 117 409: [120, 136, 255] 13 481: [12, 15, 20] 1 889: [7500, 13299, 17960] 647 5441: [1960, 2183, 2360] 39 5601: [4967, 6640, 12320] 169 6969: [7460, 12335, 30748] 371 7761: [3083, 3320, 3740] 51 8049: [7360, 11512, 12025] 159 17089: [59540, 63320, 111653] 891 18161: [18275, 21160, 25852] 219 24961: [60, 65, 156] 1 27641: [9389, 102880, 194300] 1191 28721: [60, 135, 148] 1 29921: [260, 775, 1532] 9 36849: [25883, 42220, 88360] 467 53209: [640, 6085, 6676] 33 59289: [6319, 10460, 23860] 99 65089: [468, 9060, 10865] 47 65441: [72, 175, 240] 1 66889: [800, 1372, 2245] 9 79161: [1936, 7220, 7435] 31 86601: [16372, 50425, 107900] 371 110441: [1640, 1852, 2795] 9 113241: [155, 260, 296] 1 121609: [265, 700, 988] 3 131001: [185, 1072, 7600] 21 178481: [66780, 81036, 86335] 247 183641: [1752, 27920, 36135] 91 212729: [164940, 240840, 279397] 689 272649: [28681, 156800, 176080] 381 345761: [60, 431, 540] 1 362401: [168, 175, 600] 1 364009: [38252, 75225, 87780] 163 384161: [408, 465, 520] 1 407001: [217400, 295157, 380860] 657 428129: [220, 35475, 38112] 67 489689: [8955, 17960, 18252] 31 530881: [420, 580, 609] 1 543121: [2000, 4849, 6080] 9 562489: [1241, 5520, 7800] 11 564689: [2160, 2431, 5160] 7 620321: [120, 264, 785] 1 688441: [61, 1880, 7460] 9 720921: [4220, 14885, 25616] 31 763609: [340, 559, 2620] 3 825929: [78020, 108692, 109145] 147 854401: [65, 180, 924] 1 882889: [355, 780, 792] 1 909321: [80, 764, 835] 1 937561: [2659, 30740, 32680] 39
Six days ago I wrote: On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 5:42 PM Elkies, Noam <elkies@math.harvard.edu> wrote: < 5441 arises for {a,b,c} = {1960, 2183, 2360} (with square factor 39^2). < An overnight search roughly tripled the number of examples up to 10^6; < the new ones start 201, 889, 5441, 5601, 6969, 7761, 8049. < No two-digit solutions turned up, but it may be reasonable to guess that < every squarefree 8k+1 arises eventually, though it may take a long time. < Indeed I might venture to call this guess a conjecture once it's known that < there's no "Brauer-Manin obstructuion". < Trying all a,b,c up to N takes time about N^3; that's basically what I did, < though with some tricks [ . . . ] Update: I coded this more carefully to make sure that every primitive solution of a^4+b^4+c^4 = x^2 appears as long as (a,b,c) is in the closed ball of radius R about the origin (i.e. a^2+b^2+c^2 <= R^2), and extended the search to R = 2^20 (so a bit over one million). This took about two weeks of CPU time, which came to about one day on 19 processors. That's probably about as far as it makes sense to take this method, because the run time is proportional to R^3, and the R^2 techniques, albeit with a much larger constant, are surely faster by now. For R = 2^20, there are 15838 primitive solutions with 0 <= a <= b <= c, and as expected the count grows about linearly in R -- e.g. 7981 of the 15838 solutions are in the R=2^19 ball. Also as expected, the squarefree part 1 (re)appeared for (a,b,c) = (95800, 217519, 414560). It was not quite the first duplicate, though: x = 53781801801 works for both (a,b,c) = (38960, 123140, 227107) and (a,b,c) = (6365, 87224, 230740). This x is squarefree (3*7*13*7417*26561); the next duplicate is not: 313049121489 = 3^4 13 269 1105177 for both (a,b,c) = (49600, 91319, 559400) and (a,b,c) = (91319, 426200, 504800). There were no further duplicates even when each x was reduced to its squarefree part. No two-digit squarefree parts turned up; indeed the smallest new squarefree part is 24401 = 13*1877, for (a,b,c) = (52360, 133145, 139384) with x = 1041^2 * 24401. Happy 1^4 + 2^4 + 3^4 + 5^4 + 6^4, --NDE
Wow. Do you still think all the apparently legal squarefrees will eventually show up? —rwg On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:42 AM Elkies, Noam <elkies@math.harvard.edu> wrote:
Six days ago I wrote:
On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 5:42 PM Elkies, Noam <elkies@math.harvard.edu> wrote:
< 5441 arises for {a,b,c} = {1960, 2183, 2360} (with square factor 39^2).
< An overnight search roughly tripled the number of examples up to 10^6; < the new ones start 201, 889, 5441, 5601, 6969, 7761, 8049.
< No two-digit solutions turned up, but it may be reasonable to guess that < every squarefree 8k+1 arises eventually, though it may take a long time. < Indeed I might venture to call this guess a conjecture once it's known that < there's no "Brauer-Manin obstructuion".
< Trying all a,b,c up to N takes time about N^3; that's basically what I did, < though with some tricks [ . . . ]
Update: I coded this more carefully to make sure that every primitive solution of a^4+b^4+c^4 = x^2 appears as long as (a,b,c) is in the closed ball of radius R about the origin (i.e. a^2+b^2+c^2 <= R^2), and extended the search to R = 2^20 (so a bit over one million). This took about two weeks of CPU time, which came to about one day on 19 processors. That's probably about as far as it makes sense to take this method, because the run time is proportional to R^3, and the R^2 techniques, albeit with a much larger constant, are surely faster by now.
For R = 2^20, there are 15838 primitive solutions with 0 <= a <= b <= c, and as expected the count grows about linearly in R -- e.g. 7981 of the 15838 solutions are in the R=2^19 ball. Also as expected, the squarefree part 1 (re)appeared for (a,b,c) = (95800, 217519, 414560). It was not quite the first duplicate, though: x = 53781801801 works for both (a,b,c) = (38960, 123140, 227107) and (a,b,c) = (6365, 87224, 230740). This x is squarefree (3*7*13*7417*26561); the next duplicate is not: 313049121489 = 3^4 13 269 1105177 for both (a,b,c) = (49600, 91319, 559400) and (a,b,c) = (91319, 426200, 504800). There were no further duplicates even when each x was reduced to its squarefree part.
No two-digit squarefree parts turned up; indeed the smallest new squarefree part is 24401 = 13*1877, for (a,b,c) = (52360, 133145, 139384) with x = 1041^2 * 24401.
Happy 1^4 + 2^4 + 3^4 + 5^4 + 6^4, --NDE
Bill Gosper <billgosper@gmail.com> writes:
Wow. Do you still think all the apparently legal squarefrees will eventually show up? —rwg
Yes; the usual heuristics suggest this, and also that they appear so rarely that we it would have been somewhat surprising if a two-digit one appeared in the new data. The numbers x with x^2 = a^4 + b^4 + c^4 seem to be growing as expected: the n-th one is roughly (Cn)^2 for some constant C. That's "as expected" because there are about N^3 candidates a^4+b^4+c^4 of size N^4, and we'd expect about N of them to be squares (size N^2). The constant multiplier of that N^4 is positive but small, both because of the symmetry (we may assume 0 <= a <= b <= c) and because of congruence conditions (notably, that two of a,b,c must be multiples of 5). This makes C somewhat large -- numerically about 60 from the data I have. Now if d is a "legal squarefree" then a large number x is d*square with probability about 4/sqrt(d*x) (I get the factor 4 as 8/2, with the bonus of 8 because only one in eight d's is legal, and the denominator 2 from d(u^2)/du). So, we expect that the n-th solution will work with probability about 4/sqrt(d*(Cn)^2), which is a small constant times 1/n -- around 1 / (15*sqrt(d)) if I did this right. This means that we expect infinitely many solutions, but very sparse because of the logarithmic growth of sum(1/n) and the small coefficient: we'd have to try exp(15*sqrt(d)) solutions x to expect to find one with squarefree part d. Already for d=17 that's more than 10^26 solutions. So the fact that I've not found one among the first 10^4 or so does little do change my expectation that there are infinitely many examples of d=17 "out there". (Especially since I already found the first few thousand of solutions in the previous pass, so the sum of 1/n over the new ones is not log(10^4) ~ 9 but less than 2.) NDE
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