[math-fun] "What applications does that have?"
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically. Best regards, jj
I thought everyone just talked about people thinking prime numbers were useless for hundreds of years before they turned into the infrastructure for the little lock in the corner of your browser that let you use your credit card on the web. --Michael On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:06 PM, Josh Jordan <josh@joshjordan.name> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
I'd like to hear a way of answering ["What applications does that have?"] without appearing to be rude.
How about, "none that I know of"?
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-- Forewarned is worth an octopus in the bush.
I was once asked if I was interested in working on a certain (rather applied) problem. I answered certainly - as long as it has some interesting theoretical applications. - Cris
On Mar 6, 2018, at 11:04 AM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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You might say, "No, but someday you may tax it." ---as Faraday is supposed to have said to an English prime minister when he asked what the usefulness of one of his electromagnetic devices was. (Nice story but apparently never happened <https://www.snopes.com/quotes/faraday.asp> .) On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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also: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/purity - Cris
On Mar 6, 2018, at 11:04 AM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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How about "None yet, but ask me again in a century or two"? "My name is William Rowan Hamilton I just invented the quaternion It hasn't got an applicay-shee-yun But just you wait, just you wait ..." Jim Propp On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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I have a hard time avoiding the snarky response, but the following observation helped. Whether or not there are applications obviously doesn't matter, but the *question* of whether or not there are applications is often interesting. It's hard to inspire folks to see beauty, but easy to re-frame the question to yourself. On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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James Davis's mental reframing might help keep oneself from retorting sarcastically. But it presumes the best possible intentions of the asker -- that the asker is sincerely interested in hearing about real-world applications of a particular mathematical concept. And that well-meant question is an excellent question indeed, bringing up notions of "the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" that are certainly worth thinking about. But this purposely ignores the fact that the question is often asked with less than the best intentions -- as an implied supercilious criticism of one's chosen interest. This attitude is common, and hard to ignore. I'm still in favor of responding politely, but that's the way I've been asked the question, when I've been asked. On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:37 PM, James Davis <lorentztrans@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a hard time avoiding the snarky response, but the following observation helped. Whether or not there are applications obviously doesn't matter, but the *question* of whether or not there are applications is often interesting.
It's hard to inspire folks to see beauty, but easy to re-frame the question to yourself.
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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Allan - I agree totally. I know you didn't say otherwise, but depending on circumstance, purposefully ignoring criticism is a great call. I've only gotten this question from disgruntled students - an aggressive tone can be trouble in that circumstance so I find the double-think useful. On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 4:49 PM, Allan Wechsler <acwacw@gmail.com> wrote:
James Davis's mental reframing might help keep oneself from retorting sarcastically. But it presumes the best possible intentions of the asker -- that the asker is sincerely interested in hearing about real-world applications of a particular mathematical concept. And that well-meant question is an excellent question indeed, bringing up notions of "the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" that are certainly worth thinking about.
But this purposely ignores the fact that the question is often asked with less than the best intentions -- as an implied supercilious criticism of one's chosen interest. This attitude is common, and hard to ignore. I'm still in favor of responding politely, but that's the way I've been asked the question, when I've been asked.
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:37 PM, James Davis <lorentztrans@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a hard time avoiding the snarky response, but the following observation helped. Whether or not there are applications obviously doesn't matter, but the *question* of whether or not there are applications is often interesting.
It's hard to inspire folks to see beauty, but easy to re-frame the question to yourself.
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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There's also a very old snipe attributed to Euclid, who, when a student asked him what the value of learning geometry was, supposedly said "Give him a three-obol piece since he must make gain out of what he learns." Jim On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Allan Wechsler <acwacw@gmail.com> wrote:
James Davis's mental reframing might help keep oneself from retorting sarcastically. But it presumes the best possible intentions of the asker -- that the asker is sincerely interested in hearing about real-world applications of a particular mathematical concept. And that well-meant question is an excellent question indeed, bringing up notions of "the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" that are certainly worth thinking about.
But this purposely ignores the fact that the question is often asked with less than the best intentions -- as an implied supercilious criticism of one's chosen interest. This attitude is common, and hard to ignore. I'm still in favor of responding politely, but that's the way I've been asked the question, when I've been asked.
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:37 PM, James Davis <lorentztrans@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a hard time avoiding the snarky response, but the following observation helped. Whether or not there are applications obviously doesn't matter, but the *question* of whether or not there are applications is often interesting.
It's hard to inspire folks to see beauty, but easy to re-frame the question to yourself.
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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Following on from Dan's post: a major barrier to communication over the issue of applications is surely the difficulty of intuiting exactly what topics the enquirer regards as "useful" --- a concept which is essentially arbitrary, since dependent on his (in general) unknown cultural bubble. To a graphic artist, a musician, or a pure mathematician, inherent beauty simply _is_ by itself an application. Another obstacle is the weak grasp by most non-technical individuals of isomorphism and reference. Once they have begun to (partially) understand some new concept defined for their benefit in terms of familiar trivialities, that very comprehension simultaneously prevents them from accepting that it might be also applicable in very different situation. My experience is that the techie faces a stark choice: either blind them with science, or become resigned to accepting lay contempt. WFL On 3/6/18, Allan Wechsler <acwacw@gmail.com> wrote:
James Davis's mental reframing might help keep oneself from retorting sarcastically. But it presumes the best possible intentions of the asker -- that the asker is sincerely interested in hearing about real-world applications of a particular mathematical concept. And that well-meant question is an excellent question indeed, bringing up notions of "the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" that are certainly worth thinking about.
But this purposely ignores the fact that the question is often asked with less than the best intentions -- as an implied supercilious criticism of one's chosen interest. This attitude is common, and hard to ignore. I'm still in favor of responding politely, but that's the way I've been asked the question, when I've been asked.
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:37 PM, James Davis <lorentztrans@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a hard time avoiding the snarky response, but the following observation helped. Whether or not there are applications obviously doesn't matter, but the *question* of whether or not there are applications is often interesting.
It's hard to inspire folks to see beauty, but easy to re-frame the question to yourself.
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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Inspiration due to intrinsic beauty. On 6 Mar 2018, at 18:04, Joerg Arndt wrote:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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The meaning and purpose of life is to give life purpose and meaning. The instigation of violence indicates a lack of spirituality.
Thanks for the fine answers! A little background: I did run an exhibit room for something called "Long Night of Science" here in Germany. It was about plane-filling curves, with lots of big posters and other exhibits like puzzles made of acrylic glass. So some kind of (non-theoretical) beauty was staring in your face wherever you looked. There are many applications of those curves indeed, see the patents mentioning Gray codes, the Peano curve, or the Hilbert curve. I did run through those (and many more) initially, taking much of my time, increasingly growing tired of it, and finally somewhat annoyed. Hence the message on top of this thread. Visitors could be (very roughly) divided into two groups, either saying something like "oh, nice" (and not asking that darn question), or looking around with the blankest of expressions in their face (and asking). By the way, it's only ever adults who ask. Guess I will just have to live with this (there is much worse, for example, the onslaught of weapon-grade loonies for apparently every single person teaching relativity). Thanks again and best regards, jj Hmm..., I could put a piggy bank in one corner of the room. When anyone asks about applications, I reply "I am making money out of it, as we speak!", pointing them to said piggy bank, which has a sign on it "You asked about applications, kindly leave one dollar." As an exercise in excruciating diplomacy, I could actually name applications before the request. Am I brilliant or what? * Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> [Mar 07. 2018 12:46]:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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Sadly, perhaps the most accurate answer may be: "If you have to ask, you don't have a high enough security clearance", followed by: "If I told you, I'd have to kill you", which is a most unfunny joke too often told by govt officials. There was a mild attempt post-Snowden by the mathematical community to mount some sort of protest. However, since the % of non-govt- sponsored mathematical research is vanishingly small, that protest went nowhere. It was ever thus. Archimedes used his talents against the Romans, and he died for it, even though the Roman general Marcellus had his own Operation Paperclip to save scientific assets like Archimedes. At 05:28 AM 3/7/2018, Joerg Arndt wrote:
Thanks for the fine answers!
A little background: I did run an exhibit room for something called "Long Night of Science" here in Germany. It was about plane-filling curves, with lots of big posters and other exhibits like puzzles made of acrylic glass. So some kind of (non-theoretical) beauty was staring in your face wherever you looked.
There are many applications of those curves indeed, see the patents mentioning Gray codes, the Peano curve, or the Hilbert curve. I did run through those (and many more) initially, taking much of my time, increasingly growing tired of it, and finally somewhat annoyed. Hence the message on top of this thread.
Visitors could be (very roughly) divided into two groups, either saying something like "oh, nice" (and not asking that darn question), or looking around with the blankest of expressions in their face (and asking).
By the way, it's only ever adults who ask.
Guess I will just have to live with this (there is much worse, for example, the onslaught of weapon-grade loonies for apparently every single person teaching relativity).
Thanks again and best regards, jj
Hmm..., I could put a piggy bank in one corner of the room. When anyone asks about applications, I reply "I am making money out of it, as we speak!", pointing them to said piggy bank, which has a sign on it "You asked about applications, kindly leave one dollar." As an exercise in excruciating diplomacy, I could actually name applications before the request. Am I brilliant or what?
* Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> [Mar 07. 2018 12:46]:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
Why not just answer, "We don't know...yet." Brent On 3/7/2018 5:49 AM, Henry Baker wrote:
Sadly, perhaps the most accurate answer may be: "If you have to ask, you don't have a high enough security clearance", followed by: "If I told you, I'd have to kill you", which is a most unfunny joke too often told by govt officials.
There was a mild attempt post-Snowden by the mathematical community to mount some sort of protest. However, since the % of non-govt- sponsored mathematical research is vanishingly small, that protest went nowhere.
It was ever thus. Archimedes used his talents against the Romans, and he died for it, even though the Roman general Marcellus had his own Operation Paperclip to save scientific assets like Archimedes.
At 05:28 AM 3/7/2018, Joerg Arndt wrote:
Thanks for the fine answers!
A little background: I did run an exhibit room for something called "Long Night of Science" here in Germany. It was about plane-filling curves, with lots of big posters and other exhibits like puzzles made of acrylic glass. So some kind of (non-theoretical) beauty was staring in your face wherever you looked.
There are many applications of those curves indeed, see the patents mentioning Gray codes, the Peano curve, or the Hilbert curve. I did run through those (and many more) initially, taking much of my time, increasingly growing tired of it, and finally somewhat annoyed. Hence the message on top of this thread.
Visitors could be (very roughly) divided into two groups, either saying something like "oh, nice" (and not asking that darn question), or looking around with the blankest of expressions in their face (and asking).
By the way, it's only ever adults who ask.
Guess I will just have to live with this (there is much worse, for example, the onslaught of weapon-grade loonies for apparently every single person teaching relativity).
Thanks again and best regards, jj
Hmm..., I could put a piggy bank in one corner of the room. When anyone asks about applications, I reply "I am making money out of it, as we speak!", pointing them to said piggy bank, which has a sign on it "You asked about applications, kindly leave one dollar." As an exercise in excruciating diplomacy, I could actually name applications before the request. Am I brilliant or what?
* Joerg Arndt <arndt@jjj.de> [Mar 07. 2018 12:46]:
Anyone being annoyed by this question when you presented something you found beautiful in its own? I certainly have. Plus, being a bit diplomatically challenged (ask Neil!), I'd like to hear a way of answering that question without appearing to be rude. "I don't care one bit" does not work, as I verified empirically.
Best regards, jj
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When you follow the justification chain of any technology to its limit, after many links you find that the ultimate application of any technology is to make life better (sadly, often for the few at the expense of the many). This makes the justification chain for any mathematics quite short: doing mathematics is justified by the enjoyment it gives, which makes life better.
participants (13)
-
Allan Wechsler -
Brent Meeker -
Cris Moore -
David Makin -
David Wilson -
Fred Lunnon -
Henry Baker -
James Davis -
James Propp -
Joerg Arndt -
Josh Jordan -
Michael Kleber -
W. Edwin Clark