[math-fun] Turning discrete games into continuous games ??
Are there any examples of an obviously discrete game -- e.g., tic-tac-toe, checkers, chess, go, etc. -- that can be converted into a continuous game ? The first goal might be to make time continuous, and a subsequent goal might be to make space continuous. Making time continuous is a problem, because how do the two sides "take their turn" ? But "taking turns" is really a discrete version of continually synchronizing time between two agents. In the case of chess, it is a discretized version of an obviously continuous game of war, so perhaps a continuous version might be made.
Henry Baker wrote:
Are there any examples of an obviously discrete game -- e.g., tic-tac-toe, checkers, chess, go, etc. -- that can be converted into a continuous game ?
It seems fairly obvious roughly how you'd make go continuous. 1. Playing field is some compact 2-manifold with boundary. (A square region in the plane would do.) 2. Players take turns placing one piece of their colour on the playing field. (For our purposes, a "piece" occupies a single point.) A player also has the option of passing. 3. Each piece must be at distance >= 1 from all others. 4a. Pieces at distance exactly 1 and of the same colour are "directly connected". A "group" is a maximal set of pieces any two of which can be linked by a chain of direct connections. OR, probably better, at least for noneuclidean playing fields, 4b. Pieces at distance <= 1+h (for some suitably chosen h, maybe somewhere around 1/5 or maybe much smaller) and of the same colour are "directly connected". A "group" is a maximal set of pieces any two of which can be linked by a chain of direct connections. OR, perhaps, 4c. Pieces at distance <= 1+h (for some suitably chosen h, maybe somewhere around 1/5) and of the same colour are "directly connected". A "group" is a maximal set of pieces any two of which can be linked by a chain of direct connections whose total length is at most the number of links plus some extra (small, slower-growing) term. (The idea here is that basically your pieces should be 1 unit apart, but you get a small amount of slack and you should keep your use of it small in case the group grows larger.) 5. A group for which no point exists that's legally playable (under rule 3, ignoring this rule and rule 7) and directly connected to a piece in the group is "dead".If you play a move that renders one or more of your opponents' groups dead, the pieces of those groups are immediately removed from the board. You may not play a move that, after removing opponents' dead groups, leaves you with anything dead. 6. There is no rule 6. 7. You may not play a move that recreates a previous position in the following sense: (a) the same player is to move, (b) you can pair up pieces between old and new positions such that each piece's new place is within 1/2 unit of its old place and the belongs-to-same-group relation is the same for new as for old. 8. Play stops when two consecutive passes occur. 9. At the end of the game, the winner is the player with more stones on the field. In real games of go, one counts "territory plus prisoners" but then one has to have rules like "at the end, remove any dead stones". It turns out that (discrete versions of) the nice clear-cut rules above are approximately equivalent to this for an ordinary discrete square board. You could easily make territory-based continuous rules; for actual equivalence with the above, the value of a territory would have to be something like the number of stones one could cram into it (which would be roughly proportional to its area for territories with no thin bits) but there would be complications involving "sacrificial" stone placement by the opponent. It turns out, unsurprisingly, that this has been considered before; see, e.g., http://www.di.fc.ul.pt/~jpn/gv/boards.htm . -- g
The space-continuous version of Go is cool, but I was still hoping for some game that used continuous time. An extremely simple time-continuous game would be some sort of pursuit; pursuit curves are well-studied. Various forms of car (track) racing would qualify; it is possible to pass, but only on various sections of the track, and you have to be well-positioned to do it. Having 2 identical cars (white & black?) that start one behind the other wouldn't guarantee a win for white, so long as air resistance is a part of the game -- the black car behind can "draft" & then slingshot past the leader at an appropriate moment. But I was hoping to undiscretize some simple, common discrete games. In chess, one might define a unit of energy as a usual chess move. One could move several pawns in one "move", so long as the sum total of the energy is =1. I suppose a pxp capture would require a whole unit of energy. How would "en passant" work? At 02:11 AM 2/9/2012, Gareth McCaughan wrote:
It turns out, unsurprisingly, that this has been considered before; see, e.g., http://www.di.fc.ul.pt/~jpn/gv/boards.htm .
Hi all, I realise this is a little off-topic but a relative of mine has a birthday coming up and his father wants to get him a *useful* maths book - presumably relating in some way to his son's job as an academic studying electron clouds. He phoned and asked me about a book I had once when I visited but it was some 10 to 15 years ago and I have virtually no recollection of what it was - though he mentioned it included descriptions of binomials, Fourier series etc.etc. (Abramowitz and Stegun ?) Since unlike myself most on this list probably still have strong ties to formal academia I'm hoping someone can suggest a suitable book ? I did point him at wolfram.mathworld.com to look up references... bye Dave
I suspect it is futile to try to get somebody, as a present, a useful technical book in their own field. They know what all the useful books are, already, and own the indispensable ones. On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:44 PM, David Makin <makinmagic@tiscali.co.uk>wrote:
Hi all,
I realise this is a little off-topic but a relative of mine has a birthday coming up and his father wants to get him a *useful* maths book - presumably relating in some way to his son's job as an academic studying electron clouds. He phoned and asked me about a book I had once when I visited but it was some 10 to 15 years ago and I have virtually no recollection of what it was - though he mentioned it included descriptions of binomials, Fourier series etc.etc. (Abramowitz and Stegun ?) Since unlike myself most on this list probably still have strong ties to formal academia I'm hoping someone can suggest a suitable book ? I did point him at wolfram.mathworld.com to look up references...
bye Dave _______________________________________________ math-fun mailing list math-fun@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/math-fun
I agree with Allan. Find 3-D equations for the electron clouds, use Mma to create 3-D CAD models [1], then use Shapeways [2] to print them. - Robert [1a] http://blog.wolfram.com/2007/07/19/3d-printing-with-mathematica/ [1b] http://www.wolfram.com/technology/guide/3DPrintingScanningSupport/ [2] www.shapeways.com On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 16:07, Allan Wechsler <acwacw@gmail.com> wrote:
I suspect it is futile to try to get somebody, as a present, a useful technical book in their own field. They know what all the useful books are, already, and own the indispensable ones.
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 3:44 PM, David Makin <makinmagic@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
Hi all,
I realise this is a little off-topic but a relative of mine has a birthday coming up and his father wants to get him a *useful* maths book - presumably relating in some way to his son's job as an academic studying electron clouds. He phoned and asked me about a book I had once when I visited but it was some 10 to 15 years ago and I have virtually no recollection of what it was - though he mentioned it included descriptions of binomials, Fourier series etc.etc. (Abramowitz and Stegun ?) Since unlike myself most on this list probably still have strong ties to formal academia I'm hoping someone can suggest a suitable book ? I did point him at wolfram.mathworld.com to look up references...
bye Dave
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Hello Henri,
In the case of chess, it is a discretized version of an obviously continuous game of war, so perhaps a continuous version might be made.
... I don't know if this could be a partial answer to your request, but a no-diagram chess puzzle appeared in December 1990 in the French "Europe-Échecs" magazine: White checkmates in 3 moves. In parentheses, the location of the pieces: White King (0,0) Black King (+5,0) White Rook (+14,-2) Black Pawn (-2,-4) White Knight (+4,+3) White Bishop (0,+5) To find the solution, you had to re-discretize in order to find the size and the orientation of the 8x8 board. Best, É.
participants (6)
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Henry Baker -
Robert Munafo