Gaming categorization flaws [Glencook-fans]
Judging from the majority of examples in the novels, I have found the categorization below to be heavily flawed. " Amateur (Raven) Low Level Professional (better than Raven, less powerful than company wizards) Professional (One Eye, Goblin, Silent, and Tom-Tom) Good Professional (Smoke) Great (The Circle of 18, New Taken) Great with Experience (The Ten Who Were Taken) Extremely Great (Dominator, Lady) " Harden, merely "Great" and placed on the level of non-entities like Scorn and Blister, was able to freeze three Taken during their frontal, offensive charge: the Hanged Man, an effective battle mage as seen earlier in the initial carpet attack; Stormbringer, vastly powerful as we all know; and Soulcatcher herself. Only one thing stopped Harden from scattering the brains of these 3 Taken: the action of unseen Shifter. Raven is not the amateur we think he is. He kills Raker, the first or second most dangerous and respected member of the original eighteen in the Circle. It would be foolish to think that he did not use considerable magic in this effort, perhaps a powerful concealment spell, as someone in the Circle isn't likely to be dispatched by some talentless thug who sneaks up behind him with a dagger. One-Eye built a spear that utterly destroyed an ancient "Extremely Great" sorcerer Kina, when forces of considerably greater power were only able to trap her. Sure, it took him extra time to craft it, but consider the leftover time the entrapping powers had after imprisoning Kina in the plain castle. A group of lesser light mages summoned a tree that still keeps an ancient Dominator underground. And of course, nearly any fool who stumbles upon a true name can use it to wholly disarm a demigod. None of these are exceptions: interactions like these are the norm in the Black Company microcosm. Understanding this, it appears rather useless to try to force any kind of gaming paradigm onto the type of fiction that Glen Cook has written here. None of these categories hold fast in any significant way. -Mike PS- did anyone receive my previous post? ------------------------------- Michael R. Hodum Gardens Area R.A. - Claver Hall '06-'07 Honor Council Ext. 3510 "... for among the simple pleasures of life must be counted the happiness of bringing good news to a grateful recipient." - Arnold H. M. Lunn (A Saint in the Slave Trade: Peter Claver) -------------------------------
One-Eye built a spear that utterly destroyed an ancient "Extremely Great" sorcerer Kina, when forces of considerably greater power were only able to trap her. Sure, it took him extra time to craft it, but consider the leftover time the entrapping powers had after imprisoning Kina in the plain castle.
A group of lesser light mages summoned a tree that still keeps an ancient Dominator underground. And of course, nearly any fool who stumbles upon a true name can use it to wholly disarm a demigod.
None of these are exceptions: interactions like these are the norm in the Black Company microcosm. Understanding this, it appears rather useless to try to force any kind of gaming paradigm onto the type of fiction that Glen Cook has written here. None of these categories hold fast in any significant way.
Those are some good points. Typical of Glen Cook there are no "untouchable" characters. Given the right circumstances even the gods can be brought down by mortals. This is even one of the themes of the IotN series with an "immortal" being slain by a simple cannon and coins at the beginning.
PS- did anyone receive my previous post?
I've seen 2 posts by you. The one about the wiki and this one. Steve
Michael Hodum wrote:
Judging from the majority of examples in the novels, I have found the categorization below to be heavily flawed.
" Amateur (Raven) Low Level Professional (better than Raven, less powerful than company wizards) Professional (One Eye, Goblin, Silent, and Tom-Tom) Good Professional (Smoke) Great (The Circle of 18, New Taken) Great with Experience (The Ten Who Were Taken) Extremely Great (Dominator, Lady) "
Harden, merely "Great" and placed on the level of non-entities like Scorn and Blister, was able to freeze three Taken during their frontal, offensive charge: the Hanged Man, an effective battle mage as seen earlier in the initial carpet attack; Stormbringer, vastly powerful as we all know; and Soulcatcher herself. Only one thing stopped Harden from scattering the brains of these 3 Taken: the action of unseen Shifter.
That's true. I think there may have been a combination of luck and the Taken underestimating him... Then again they devoted four of their number to deal with him - three as distractions while the fourth pretended to his house. Maybe, with a few more years and / or a greater exposure to magic Lore, he could have been on the same level as the Lady and Dominator? And Croaker makes it clear that he considered Whisper the equal of the Old Taken Thinking back, I should have talked about a difference between the New Circle of 18 and the Original Circle of 18 - that number was stable as their best were destroyed. Harden and Whisper were clearly far more powerful than Journey and Feather. The Original Circle of 18 were the biggest, baddest wizards to arise in the centuries since the fall of the Domination while Journey and Feather were clearly the second (maybe third) string as far as the Circle goes. But I would still put Journey, Feather, Scorn, etc at more or less the same level - born with the power of a Taken, but lacking the knowledge and experience to play with the big boys.
Raven is not the amateur we think he is. He kills Raker, the first or second most dangerous and respected member of the original eighteen in the Circle. It would be foolish to think that he did not use considerable magic in this effort, perhaps a powerful concealment spell, as someone in the Circle isn't likely to be dispatched by some talentless thug who sneaks up behind him with a dagger.
Just because Raker was a wizard doesn't mean he used magic for everything. I suspect he was respect more for his skills as a general than for his power level, but even if he was - look how he died: All his sense concentrating on Bait (Raven's pet name for Croaker at this point) who carries the stink of the Taken on him. He's been run ragged for weeks, he knows he's in a trap, so he takes some bait. Nothing happens (well, Croaker has to do some stitching) so he takes some more bait - all the while looking for the trap the Taken has set for him. Only the Taken is out of town (stirring up trouble for her rival Taken) and some dude with a knife takes him out. In some ways this argues that Raven wasn't every powerful - Soulcatcher couldn't watch Limper's fall because she knew the Limper would be able to sense her powers. She talked about putting aside all her power to watch, but decided it was too dangerous. Raker, looking for a sorcerer to attack him, never sensed Raven coming.
One-Eye built a spear that utterly destroyed an ancient "Extremely Great" sorcerer Kina, when forces of considerably greater power were only able to trap her. Sure, it took him extra time to craft it, but consider the leftover time the entrapping powers had after imprisoning Kina in the plain castle.
Perhaps they never bothered to return to finish her off. Kina was neutralized and there would be other problems to deal with. Or maybe her prison was a monument to their victory? I'm sure the powers that beat the Dominator could have eventually destroyed him. All it would have taken was them remaining on a war footing for generations as they destroyed his allies one at a time then finished him off - but people wouldn't want to do that. They fought a hard war for survival and when he was beaten they took a deep breath and relaxed. They got on with life, raised kids, and didn't make the sacrifices they would have had to if they wanted the Dominator destroy. And why should they? Making sacrifices when your existence depends on it is one thing, but doing that when you are safe? When there's no real threat? Why bother when the eternal guard will ensure that the Dominator never rises again? And even we do destroy him won't some of his spirit and evil live on?
A group of lesser light mages summoned a tree that still keeps an ancient Dominator underground. And of course, nearly any fool who stumbles upon a true name can use it to wholly disarm a demigod.
Were they lesser mages? Or were the Circle of 18 to that age's Dominator? There's been other debate about naming. Remember when Croaker named Shiftshifter's sidekick (Lisa something?) in the books of the south? He said something like "Your real name is blah, and all these sorcerer types just heard that True Name so watch it." And when the Naming is done it's with words like "The Ritual is Done. You are blah..." What kind of ritual work went on before the Naming? Who knows?
None of these are exceptions: interactions like these are the norm in the Black Company microcosm. Understanding this, it appears rather useless to try to force any kind of gaming paradigm onto the type of fiction that Glen Cook has written here. None of these categories hold fast in any significant way.
And that's the problem with using books as a gaming source. Games are writing with rules and play balance. Books are written with drama, plot, and effects. In a game a wizard is limited by the rules; in a book the same wizard is limited only by what the author needs him to do with the plot. I've read books that are almost easy to convert to games because the author has laid out how magic works in that world. Glen Cook never lays out a system - his wizards are more or less consistent in their power level (someone like One Eye is as powerful one day as he is the next) but that's it. The only part of a system he does give is the stuff about True Names. No, it's not easy converting Cook's world to gaming, but it can be done. There was a GURPS Magic book that cited The Black Company in it's world building section as an example of a world where magic existed but didn't dominate the battlefield, and GURPS would be a good fit for low level Black Company Wizards (but not the Taken). Then again, The Lord of the Rings gives even less insight to how magic works there, but there have been at least two RPG adaptations so anything can be adapted. The question then comes: Is this a good adaptation or not? For the product I reviewed the answer was clearly no.
-Mike
PS- did anyone receive my previous post?
I don't think I saw it. Richard
While I agree the categories were pretty imprecise, I'm not entirely sure I agree with your estimates, either. One of the most distinctive elements of the Black Company magic system (and I believe it can be systematized successfully) is that what a Taken can do quickly, a lesser wizard can do over a much longer period of time. In addition, raw power can sometimes be beaten by finesse or low cunning. Green Ronin tried to build some of these characteristics into their system, but I think in practical game terms they failed pretty miserably. So Harden, who I think is pretty clearly NOT the equal of the original Taken, is still able to develop and "hang" a powerful anti-Taken spell that has the additional advantage of taking the three Taken completely by surprise. Presumably, the Taken didn't expect him to be capable of such a magic, or didn't expect him to be ready to use it so quickly--it's remotely possible they didn't think Harden capable of using that particular spell (and spells tend to be somewhat individualized from wizard to wizard in the BC universe). What's for sure is that this one spell took most of what Harden had, magic-wise, given that the rest of the fight, he's pretty much reduced to his martial power against his attackers. He also doesn't seem capable of such long-term defensive magics, the layers-on-layers of protective spells that we can hear Soulcatcher discussing in the Books of the South (Water Sleeps, I think, is where we get the clearest sense of just how much passive magic Taken have sitting and waiting for use). So he could land one big punch, but he couldn't go ten rounds with the Taken. I suspect Raven is a bit past an amateur, but he can't be a big enough talent to be easily detectable. His main edge has always been ruthless intelligence and cunning, coupled with a willingness to do what it takes to accomplish his objectives. A more experienced wizard would certainly have picked up the stink of the Black Castle. In any event, we know he's not a match for the least of the Company wizards. The spear was unquestionably a matter of time and craft over power. One-Eye was obsessed with that spear for an extended period of time, and arguably the power he poured into it sapped his health, too. Still, I'd put the late-novel Goblin and One-Eye at the level of the least of the Shadowmasters, though without the same level of vitality and energy to fuel their magics. Basic observable facts about BC magic include: 1. Power flow can operate a trickle at a time over long periods, or a flood all at once. Naturally, the flood can do things the trickle can't, but there are plenty of tasks where the end result will be the same with either approach. 2. Related to point 1, spells can either be used along sledgehammer lines, or approached like finely woven tapestries. Woven magics tend to be much more powerful when finished, but require patience and finesse as well as time. Use of magic tends to erode the patience of practitioners, so very few of the most powerful wizards have the patience to spend months or years on single spells. That's part of what makes Lady more deadly than her husband--he's less likely to be patient. Stormbringer's storms would presumably be woven, while most of Limper's spells are sledgehammers. Of course, woven spells can be unravelled, too. The Pastel-War-related magic the Taken undo, and the magic Shadowspinner prepared but was unable to release would be examples of that. 3. Indirect magic is easier than direct magic. That's what makes spellcasters like Silent and Goblin so innovative--they can't go directly at a problem, but have to use cunning to approach it. Casting a spell to sting large groups of people all over is much harder than enchanting a bunch of bees to control them and make them hard to see. 4. Illusion isn't real, but isn't entirely fake either. Illusions seem to be fairly easy and quite effective, but wizards like the Taken rarely use them. Presumably, illusions either have a bad reputation (are seen as "beneath" the most powerful wizards), or they require a level of thought closer to that of "ordinary" people than the most powerful wizards can manage. David Michael Hodum wrote:
Judging from the majority of examples in the novels, I have found the categorization below to be heavily flawed.
" Amateur (Raven) Low Level Professional (better than Raven, less powerful than company wizards) Professional (One Eye, Goblin, Silent, and Tom-Tom) Good Professional (Smoke) Great (The Circle of 18, New Taken) Great with Experience (The Ten Who Were Taken) Extremely Great (Dominator, Lady) "
Harden, merely "Great" and placed on the level of non-entities like Scorn and Blister, was able to freeze three Taken during their frontal, offensive charge: the Hanged Man, an effective battle mage as seen earlier in the initial carpet attack; Stormbringer, vastly powerful as we all know; and Soulcatcher herself. Only one thing stopped Harden from scattering the brains of these 3 Taken: the action of unseen Shifter.
Raven is not the amateur we think he is. He kills Raker, the first or second most dangerous and respected member of the original eighteen in the Circle. It would be foolish to think that he did not use considerable magic in this effort, perhaps a powerful concealment spell, as someone in the Circle isn't likely to be dispatched by some talentless thug who sneaks up behind him with a dagger.
One-Eye built a spear that utterly destroyed an ancient "Extremely Great" sorcerer Kina, when forces of considerably greater power were only able to trap her. Sure, it took him extra time to craft it, but consider the leftover time the entrapping powers had after imprisoning Kina in the plain castle.
A group of lesser light mages summoned a tree that still keeps an ancient Dominator underground. And of course, nearly any fool who stumbles upon a true name can use it to wholly disarm a demigod.
None of these are exceptions: interactions like these are the norm in the Black Company microcosm. Understanding this, it appears rather useless to try to force any kind of gaming paradigm onto the type of fiction that Glen Cook has written here. None of these categories hold fast in any significant way.
-Mike
PS- did anyone receive my previous post?
------------------------------- Michael R. Hodum Gardens Area R.A. - Claver Hall '06-'07 Honor Council Ext. 3510
"... for among the simple pleasures of life must be counted the happiness of bringing good news to a grateful recipient."
- Arnold H. M. Lunn (A Saint in the Slave Trade: Peter Claver) -------------------------------
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participants (4)
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David Ainsworth -
Michael Hodum -
Richard Chilton -
Steve Chew