Tim, Greg, Rich and All, Its wonderful to see interest in making updates. David already seems to have something in hand =). I can easily see how a rewrite of Fractint might consume ~2,000 to ~4,000 developer hours. Its of course up to contributing developers to figure out how much can be given. I cut out a philosophical paragraph on choosing technology from my last email since it seems to dig up strong opinions =). I'll give my opinion about it here since it seems some technology would need to be chosen to carry on! I don't know what particular language and design experiences everyone has. It seems we all come together with an interest in fractals and perhaps differing experience in various technologies. Naturally everyone's made choices and time commitments to learn and apply a specific set of knowledge. Naturally any one of us can contribute with what we know. Tim, your point is well received, "discussions about platform mean nothing without skill, time, and commitment." How can Fractint bring forth new features with available skills? Is C and assembly going to be able to evolve Fractint into the future? What is maintainable? Does Fractint need a new language to provide new features? If yes, should we talk about a Fractint technological upgrade path? Do we evaluate top features we want to see and pick a technology? Does that make any sense? Who really wants to learn a new language or technology for an open source project? Every technology is gonna have different benefits, drawbacks and mindshare. I fully expect the C programmer to recommend C. The Java programmer to recommend Java, and the C# programmer to recommend C#. So if that's the case, where does that put a Fractint development effort? Is Fractint going to be able to evolve? Does it make sense to continue the banner of Fractint? What makes Fractint? People of course! But is it a name? Is it set of core features? Is it the persistence of a group of people over time? A maintainable code base? Is it a community of energized users? Yes, yes, yes and some more yesses. I think its all worth cultivating. Theres something to be said for Rich's comment on having an individual foraging ahead, independently, and developing what he thinks is best. Desire and action and results, plain and simple. Then I go back to "What is Fractint?" David has running Java app. And I'm ready to go out and make my own. You know YAFA (Yet another fractal app) has gone through my mind enough times to give me pause. We recognize the need to share design patterns and still move ahead. I use to develop Java web apps and now moved to .Net and c#. I can see how managed c# is a specific technological gravity well that many are rolling to. I also see how specific .net technologies can be applied to offer a modern application that can develop great features. Windows Forms provides a modern windows interface, Distributed calculation can be implemented through remoting, video card pixel shaders can be written with the support of DirectX for real-time calculation of entire frames, Video animation technologies can be integrated with Windows Media, we can update the arbitrary precision libraries or use existing, .Net arbitrary precision libraries, peer-to-peer can be implemented with web services, etc, etc. Man, I sound like a walking talking Microsoft ad, all this coming from someone who spent 12K+ on his mac addiction and worked for Apple! Well what about C++, or Java? What can be maintained? David, I agree with you, there are already a lot of good fractal apps already out there. Tierazon has some great zooming capabilities. Very easy to navigate the zoom and canvas size. Kai Power Tools has, in one version, excellent gradient designer and random seed parameter mutation which made for a high degree of usability for the non-technical. Ultra Fractal has interesting layering capabilities, Adobe Photoshop like interface, and an online formula database to receive new formulas from. So theres innovation all around. Many of the apps are purchasable products. What's kept people coming back to Fractint? Has it been the free availability? The website? The features? Are those the items to build on? I want to see the Uber, the Ultimate, the Unitive fractal app. There are a lot of neat features that can go in that no one has ever done before. What do you guys think are the best fractal apps out there (besides Fractint)? Best features? Should I be helping in the future development of Fractint? Should there be some new open source project? I'm trying to explore all avenues and see what sticks. Whats worth what. And where to go. I'm just some guy who wrote an email and wants to write an app. Fractint has been around quite awhile, has a userbase, and people happily volunteering. Whats the vision? Whos gonna drive it? Whos gonna decide on the future technological path of Fractint? How does any technological choice meet development objectives and bring developers together? I don't know what to do. Help! =) Thanks! Rana
Rana Ian wrote:
....there are already a lot of good
fractal apps already out there. ....
Many of the apps are purchasable products.
What's kept people coming back to Fractint?
Has it been the free availability? The
website? The features? Are those the
items to build on?
Yes, there are several very good fractal related applications available. And some of the more recent ones, over the past five or so years, have incorporated the better features of their predecessors. And one item which has spurred the popularity of a few of these apps is the ability to use the files from FractInt (FRM, PAR, MAP, IFS, etc.). There are at least fifty different programs around that can use various files from FractInt. So what does that say about the people coding their programs to use such files?? THAT FRACTINT IS STILL ONE OF THE BEST !!!
I want to see the Uber, the Ultimate, the
Unitive fractal app. There are a lot of
neat features that can go in that no one
has ever done before. What do you guys
think are the best fractal apps out there
(besides Fractint)? Best features?
What has been mentioned before more than once, and what I believe should be seriously thought about, is making a core set of program modules that are not platform dependent, so that they can be used by any computer and operating system. Then various User Interfaces would be written to use those modules for actually handling the aspects of fractal generation, but would be developed for each of the various OS environments. The different UI versions would basically function the same and have everything the other ports had, but they would be more tailored for their own systems, working like other apps within those environments. And, one very big item that should be incorporated into FractInt is the ability to produce real 3-D objects and meshes for a variety of formats: OBJ, POV, DXF, WRL, LF, etc... This is the wave of the future for most graphic applications, being able to create, render, import, export, and handle various 3-D objects. Sincerely, P.N.L. ------------------------------------------------- http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/PNL_Fractals.html http://www.Nahee.com/Fractals/
Hi,
....there are already a lot of good
fractal apps already out there. ....
Many of the apps are purchasable products.
What's kept people coming back to Fractint?
Has it been the free availability? The
website? The features? Are those the
items to build on?
Yes, there are several very good fractal related applications
available. And some of the more recent ones, over the past five or so
years, have incorporated the better features of their predecessors.
And
one item which has spurred the popularity of a few of these apps is
the
ability to use the files from FractInt (FRM, PAR, MAP, IFS, etc.).
There are at least fifty different programs around that can use
various
files from FractInt. So what does that say about the people coding
their programs to use such files?? THAT FRACTINT IS STILL ONE OF
THE
BEST !!!
:) very interesting
I want to see the Uber, the Ultimate, the
Unitive fractal app. There are a lot of
neat features that can go in that no one
has ever done before. What do you guys
think are the best fractal apps out there
(besides Fractint)? Best features?
What has been mentioned before more than once, and what I believe
should
be seriously thought about, is making a core set of program modules
that
are not platform dependent, so that they can be used by any computer
and
operating system. Then various User Interfaces would be written to
use
those modules for actually handling the aspects of fractal generation,
but would be developed for each of the various OS environments. The
different UI versions would basically function the same and have
everything the other ports had, but they would be more tailored for
their own systems, working like other apps within those environments.
It seems easy to agree there is a need for a universal component model / design architecture. Something which enables beautiful extensibility where developers can step up and add genuine not-before-seen value. And its all in the details. This is the platform, implementation, performance question. Java offers some degree of universality, but lacks performance for the fractal calculation. Java might do well in providing a somewhat universal application implementation through windows, unix, mac if we have platform specific data types to call for faster calculations. Without platform localized data types Java would offer universiality with some performance hit. Apple and Microsoft offer their own Java language API to their own technologies providing more performance and no cross-platform compatability. Sun and Apple would like to have ubiquity, more market share, they would be Microsoft if they could. Apple and Sun like to strong arm as much as Microsoft, the only difference is that they have smaller arms :) So where are people at? Whos the Fractint userbase? And why was Fractint written for DOS and not some other operating system when it was made? :) Whats everyone running on their desktop? Does Fractint being written for DOS mean it would be extended to Windows? Picking up on David's thoughts on making a design specification. Perhaps Fractint could be a platform independent application design specification? File format specification? And possible peer-to-peer and server commuinication specification? I dunno.
And, one very big item that should be incorporated into FractInt is
the
ability to produce real 3-D objects and meshes for a variety of
formats: OBJ, POV, DXF, WRL, LF, etc... This is the wave of the
future for most graphic applications, being able to create, render,
import, export, and handle various 3-D objects.
3-D object meshes and their formats are slightly different than the output of a rendered fractal from what I understand. Though texture extruded meshes can be formed from fractal bitmaps? Cheers, rana
Rana Ian wrote:
Paul N. Lee wrote:
There are at least fifty different programs around that can use various files from FractInt. So what does that say about the people coding their programs to use such files?? THAT FRACTINT IS STILL ONE OF THE BEST !!!
:) very interesting
Just some of the programs that have been able to use FractInt Files: ChaosPro Ultrafractal Fractal Zplot Apophysis QuaSZ Dofo-Zon Elite Cubics Dreamer FraSZle Dust Fractals Fractal Elite Medusa WManJul WinFract ManPWin
And, one very big item that should be incorporated into FractInt is the ability to produce real 3-D objects and meshes for a variety of formats: OBJ, POV, DXF, WRL, LF, etc... This is the wave of the future for most graphic applications, being able to create, render, import, export, and handle various 3-D objects.
3-D object meshes and their formats are slightly different than the output of a rendered fractal from what I understand. Though texture extruded meshes can be formed from fractal bitmaps?
There are at least 24 fractal related generators that have the capability to export their renderings to one or more of these 3-D formats. Some of the most popular are XenoDream, POV-Ray, and several programs by Terry W. Gintz (such as QuaSZ). Sincerely, P.N.L. ------------------------------------------------- http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/PNL_Fractals.html http://www.Nahee.com/Fractals/
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Rana Ian